[scarberiankhatru]

you did say you'd run a subway out for several miles to an amusement park once out of spite and malice

A subway to Vaughan Mills/Wonderland would be used much more than a subway to the Zoo.

I'd show you stats but I know what happened the last time I used facts to prove my viewpoints.

There will never be 750,000 people living in east Scarborough...in 20 or 30 years much of Scarborough may actually start depopulating due to demographic changes - 750,000 may be the highest population Scarborough ever sees.

What about all the other areas in the northeast and northwest that'd be better served by horizontal alignments even at the slim risk of overcapacitating YUS (which wouldn't happen for decades which by then a non-subway or pre-metro along DRL's path would be in place).

The Yonge line is already overcrowded south of Bloor. Pre-metro is utterly worthless and hideously expensive. A huge number of people of people taking east/west routes end up downtown - arterial subway lines get them there much faster, although I've already told you a dozen times that I'd extend the Sheppard line, and build the Eglinton and Queen lines in addition to the radial lines...I'd build a large network of many subway lines, not just two or three silly lines that wander all over the suburbs.

 

[unimaginative2]

Don't tell me socialwoe has latched on to the pre-metro stuff, too. It's a good idea, but it doesn't seem to have worked in practice. In Brussels, they built all these pre-metro lines so that they could be converted in the future to subway operation. Unfortunately, they've now discovered that it would cost far too much and require long-term shut-down of the lines if they ever did the conversion. They could have spent a few million more and had a subway right from the start, but instead I got to experience crush loads at 2pm on a Sunday.

 

[socialwoe]

A subway to Vaughan Mills/Wonderland would be used much more than a subway to the Zoo.

But is farther away from the core than the Zoo, the primary reason you don't want subways in East Scarborough. Sadly, it may become a reality alot sooner, since Dumbledore Sorbara and Co. are deadset to expand into the hinterlands.

There will never be 750,000 people living in east Scarborough...in 20 or 30 years much of Scarborough may actually start depopulating due to demographic changes - 750,000 may be the highest population Scarborough ever sees.

If it depopulates it only because residents are beyond fed up of the substandard living conditions, inclusive of the least accessibilty to mass transit anywhere in the GTA.

"In 2001, Scarborough's population was 593,297, with a density of 3 160.9/km². A study based on census data between 1996 and 2001 shows that Scarborough's growth rate was more than 6%, the highest growth in Toronto. Its population is second to North York, but if this trend continues it should be the most populated district in Toronto by 2010." en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scarborough%2C_Ontario#Demographics

That should quell your mad rhetoric for a while, I hope :lol !

The Yonge line is already overcrowded south of Bloor.

If by that you mean south of Dundas, which you do, Queen+ Harbourfront Express takes care of 80% of the capacity issues.

Pre-metro is utterly worthless and hideously expensive.

We could always downgrade our idealism to what Don Mills really deserves, affordable BRT in it's own ROW .

A huge number of people of people taking east/west routes end up downtown - arterial subway lines get them there much faster,

Even with Kingston, VP and Hwy 27/427/Brown's Line acting as north-south feeders on both ends of the city? I agree the corridor where the DRL would be could use a local express service (LRT/BRT/SRT-type) just not an underground subway. Investments should go to the horizontals over the verticals since Bloor only covers a small area in the big scheme of things, reenforcements from both the north and south of there is long overdue. DRL makes it appear like verticals are the only solution.

although I've already told you a dozen times that I'd extend the Sheppard line, and build the Eglinton and Queen lines in addition to the radial lines...I'd build a large network of many subway lines,

Did you ever a post a subway map here? I'm reaaally curious to see how the great insultor's mind works :evil ! Though since you've never indicated you'd give either Sheppard, Eglinton or Queen maximum mileage, I'm assuming your ideas of expansion fall on the mediocre side.

not just two or three silly lines that wander all over the suburbs.

And yet you'd build subways to Hwy 7 and Major Mackenzie, hypocrite much :rolleyes ?

They could have spent a few million more and had a subway right from the start,

You're making the assumption less than 25, 000 ppd qualifies the DRL for subway status, I'd sooner invest on express tracks to YUS.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

But is farther away from the core than the Zoo, the primary reason you don't want subways in East Scarborough.

Square One is even farther from the core but I support long-term subway expansion out there...the difference with the Zoo is obvious to everyone but you - it's a park.

That should quell your mad rhetoric for a while, I hope

Uh, the old city of Toronto is bigger than both Scarborough and North York and both Toronto and North York are also growing...most of Scarborough's current growth is greenfield-based. You specifically said there will be more than 750,000 living east of McCowan.

If by that you mean south of Dundas, which you do, Queen+ Harbourfront Express takes care of 80% of the capacity issues.

It's overcrowded south of Bloor...it's possibly the most overcrowded at Wellesley station. And a Queen line wouldn't handle people taking the Yonge line, only a DRL will.

We could always downgrade our idealism to what Don Mills really deserves, affordable BRT in it's own ROW

When Malvern starts depopulating, we can downgrade its bus routes from regular service to limited service.

Though since you've never indicated you'd give either Sheppard, Eglinton or Queen maximum mileage, I'm assuming your ideas of expansion fall on the mediocre side.

Since they wouldn't go to Durham, they fall on the reasonable side. Anyway, all these fantasy maps will become hopelessly obsolete if GO is revamped...

And yet you'd build subways to Hwy 7 and Major Mackenzie

True, I'd build at least two subways to Hwy 7 before I built one to Morningside Heights/the Zoo, or to Rouge Hill. Unlike your subways, though, they'd go in straight lines and serve hundreds of thousands of people.

You're making the assumption less than 25, 000 ppd qualifies the DRL for subway status, I'd sooner invest on express tracks to YUS.

The DRL's ridership would be more like 250,000. Express tracks on Yonge would be far more expensive and would improve transit for less people than bringing a new subway line to new areas would.

 

[socialwoe]

Square One is even farther from the core but I support long-term subway expansion out there...

Um, okay, I gave MCC two stations! Let's not start thinking we can't live in a world where both GTA West and GTA East can get subways even if population on one currently outnumbers the other. Remember once again the Zoo's the ultimate frontier, unless the subway went along Tywn Rivers or CN into Pickering it'd be the absolute end, except not really since it's the midpoint of a continuous loop diversifying people's transit options that doesn't limit them to out-of-the-way detours.

the difference with the Zoo is obvious to everyone but you - it's a park.

I hate how you keep throwing Zoo rhetoric in my face when you keep failing to see the overall big f-cking picture, it's not the Zoo, it's the location. If two diagonal lines spanned out from Yonge-Eglinton to hit the four corners of Toronto, do you not think it'd be of worth then? I know new housing, numerous commercial and industrial activity in the area, eastern gateway status near the 401 and a world renown zoo mean nothing to you but that's far more than alot of the areas you over-glorify as the saviour of all that is wholly transit. Yes it borders a park but that's immaterial to anything.

Uh, the old city of Toronto is bigger than both Scarborough and North York and both Toronto and North York are also growing

One third of the city IS Scarborough, three stations of one line is Scarborough, see any drastic inadequacies? And what part of Scarborough's the fastest growing population in the GTA didn't you get? You can count on unforseen populations on the harbourfront and VCC to justify building lines there but zilch for east-of-McCowan?

It's overcrowded south of Bloor...it's possibly the most overcrowded at Wellesley station. And a Queen line wouldn't handle people taking the Yonge line, only a DRL will.

Queen- 59,620 daily boardings= 8th busiest stop flanked by
the 9th and 10th busiest. 501 carries est. 41,200+.
Wellesley- 22,070 daily boardings= 37th busiest stop

Nice try though !

When Malvern starts depopulating, we can downgrade its bus routes from regular service to limited service.

What LSD trp are you on? Hello 132 Milner is already limited, 131 off-peak is unreliable, and 134 mainly short turns at Centennial. Only 133 is regular and even you complained how circuitously long the route is. East Scarborough in general suffers more short turns, retro 1970s buses and limited service off-peak than any other region of Toronto despite being the farthest away from a reliable mass transit source.

Since they wouldn't go to Durham, they fall on the reasonable side.

East Ave isn't remotely Durham, but it is the easternmost logical point to terminate a subway.

Anyway, all these fantasy maps will become hopelessly obsolete if GO is revamped...

Yes but the question of the millenium, as yet, hasn't been answered !

True, I'd build at least two subways to Hwy 7 before I built one to Morningside Heights/the Zoo, or to Rouge Hill. Unlike your subways, though, they'd go in straight lines and serve hundreds of thousands of people.

My lines would serve hundreds of 000s as well. People who've never rode on a bus will inadvertantly hop aboard a subway for the 1st time that's mins away, walking distance from their homes. The untapped invisible majority of Torontonians will ordane me for recognizing their communities at long, bloody last while Yonge Subway 3.0, 4.0 and 5.0 flounders to keep itself afloat :rollin !

The DRL's ridership would be more like 250,000. Express tracks on Yonge would be far more expensive and would improve transit for less people than bringing a new subway line to new areas would.

The way you'd do it with no intermediates, no real new ground's covered. I'm predicting a Malthusian collapse if by contrast the Lawrence and York Mills Stns. on YUS are among the least used on that line and if Eglinton and Sheppard lines subtracts DRL's use to DM, what exactly are we wasting billions on? Thorncliffe Park might have alot of residents but you can't ignore that it's surrounded by nothing, zippo! Yet you give river valleys and precipices (and 10 lane highway/rail combo barrier) precedence over say a Queen line directly through the heart of downtown anyway.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

"Queen- 59,620 daily boardings= 8th busiest stop flanked by
the 9th and 10th busiest. 501 carries est. 41,200+.
Wellesley- 22,070 daily boardings= 37th busiest stop
Nice try though "

Overcrowding isn't measured by individual stops but by how many people are actually on the train.

And what part of Scarborough's the fastest growing population in the GTA didn't you get?

The part where you said more than 750,000 people will live east of McCowan.

If two diagonal lines spanned out from Yonge-Eglinton to hit the four corners of Toronto, do you not think it'd be of worth then?

No, not at all.

"What LSD trp are you on? Hello 132 Milner is already limited, 131 off-peak is unreliable, and 134 mainly short turns at Centennial."

So much for all these supposedly busy bus routes to Malvern to justify two subway extensions...

 

[unimaginative2]

People who've never rode on a bus will inadvertantly hop aboard a subway

Haha...they'll stumble down the stairs into a subway station as they're strolling through Rouge Park.

 

[adma]

Haha...they'll stumble down the stairs into a subway station as they're strolling through Rouge Park.

www.nonstick.com/sounds/Y...ys_068.wav

 

[socialwoe]

Overcrowding isn't measured by individual stops but by how many people are actually on the train.

Overcrowding wouldn't occur if and when single-continuous carred trains start operation in the very near future :smokin . Too bad for the DRL however since the capacity issues on YUS were the primary reason for it.

The part where you said more than 750,000 people will live east of McCowan.

They will, if they don't it's the fault of politicians/private sector not providing better facilities/amenities/employment options for it's residents.

No, not at all.

I'd debate this but I'll take a cue from your past posts... you're mind-numbingly obtuse!

So much for all these supposedly busy bus routes to Malvern to justify two subway extensions...

One line >: !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Why would there be numerous bus routes in Malvern if the subway carries the most load? Apart from 133, all other routes could be consolidated into a single Malvern route originating out of Sheppard East Stn.

Haha...they'll stumble down the stairs into a subway station as they're strolling through Rouge Park.

If by Rouge Park you mean Morningview/Old Finch and Zoo/Meadowvale then I'd worry more about the loose aligator down the tunnel :lol .

I expected better from you Uni. You seriously don't think car-dependent residents wouldn't make the switch if it was feasibly reasonable to do so i.e. living 10 mins away from the subway system. It's a tall order I know and if we didn't waste the last 30 years building lines in areas that wouldn't encourage growth and neglected present demands (core and inter-suburban) we could be alot closer to universal accessibility than you think. It's embarassing Montreal's building subway 'cathedrals' while we can barely scramble up a lousy streetcar repair.

 

[unimaginative2]

I agree with you. I was just joking about the word 'inadvertently'. I don't think Malvern is a particularly good spot to encourage growth, though. I definitely support more subways in the downtown area. I'd certainliy support a subway to Vaughan Corporate Centre before one to Malvern, since at least its planning actively encourages growth compared to the Zoo area which prohibits it.

The most obvious places to encourage intensification is the waterfront. Other spots that could work are the Eglinton corridor, the Don Mills corridor, the Weston corridor, and particularly the Sheppard and North Yonge corridors where it's already happening.

I lived down the block from a subway station in Munich. We were on a residential street with single-family homes and duplexes. The station was never particularly busy, but it served the neighbourhood rather well. It wasn't a terminal stop, though. The line was on its way to the massive new Messe (trade fair complex). My dream for Toronto would be to have a transit system like Munich's, with a little more frequent subways. The S-Bahn and U-bahn connections are seamless, and they're all very reliable. It doesn't hurt that the new stations are gorgeous. You should take a look, socialwoe.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

They will, if they don't it's the fault of politicians/private sector not providing better facilities/amenities/employment options for it's residents.

I can see it now:
FavelaTown, brought to you by the same developers who built the 400 shimmering towers of ZooPlace, is a master planned community of sheds clad in corrugated metal. Due to the lack of employment or recreation options, FavelaTown is conveniently located steps from the Beare Road Landfill, and for your scavenging needs, each unit includes a metal detector and shovel. Features such as oversized storage lockers and unlimited utilities are included to encourage indoor "subsistence farming."

 

[socialwoe]

I don't think Malvern is a particularly good spot to encourage growth, though.

Please check the RTES report again. Sheppard East is the densest employment area in Scarborough after STC. Malvern houses one the most ethically diverse, new immigrant communities in the city amounting to some 60, 000 reidents.

The complete census of Ward 18 cannot be 'assumed' to be 75, 000 indefinitely because alot of new immigrants tend to co-habitate (i.e. to share residence communally) upto twelve famnily members per household. Housing projects in Brookside, Morningside Hts, Rouge Valley and Conlins redevelopments have yet to even be surveyed.

Then there's the 905 side of things. With Markham-Bypass linking up to Morningside Avenue north of Finch there's a definite feeder to and from the suburbs, encouraging growth. The non-parkland developable lands north of Steeles could accomodate an unforseen as yet 100, 000 people.

Finally there's the relatively short highway trek Durham express routes could make from PTC to Meadowvale or Dean Park, creating a direct link between PTC, STC, NYC and Pearson. There are too many reasons beyond the shockingly overlooked fact that the TTC's recognized Malvern's worth since the early 80s if not earlier, to ignore it's potential.

I mean it's not like MTC couldn't become a neo-STC or Fairview in the future, it's an island of developable land surrounded by a thriving densely populated transit-dependent community. I'm all for Sears, Best Buy, Walmart and Canadian Tire moving in if it spurs endless convenience for tens of 000s.

I'd certainliy support a subway to Vaughan Corporate Centre before one to Malvern, since at least its planning actively encourages growth compared to the Zoo area which prohibits it.

The only plus of the VCC extension is that the 905 chips in to build it although they're only financing their north-of-Steeles stub so it doesn't exactly benefit Torontonians at all.

The most obvious places to encourage intensification is the waterfront. Other spots that could work are the Eglinton corridor.

I agree. Eglinton in of itself is great but we can't be fooled into thinking Markham Rd and Renforth Dr are the say all, end all. We must expand! Me fighting for recognition of Kingston-Morningside-UTSC is to question why you'd build a line only so far when there are nodes farther east that deserve accessibilty. I'll say this again, Morningside is the last dense corridor in east Toronto where present-day demands warrant a subway. Stopping part-way because some posters feel it's too far away from the core is the dumbest logic in the world. "Yeah it's too far way from Yonge, so let's make it even further by not giving it a rapid link!" :rolleyes .

the Don Mills corridor, the Weston corridor, and particularly the Sheppard and North Yonge corridors where it's already happening

The quest for intermediates will likely wedge on though. If Yonge and DRL were done to their full potential they'd resemble a rethinking of the YRT VIVA routes basically:

Yonge north of Finch- Cummer/Drewry, Steeles, Clark, Centre, Royal Orchard, Langstaff, Bantry, Carville/16th, Weldrick, Major Mac, Crosby, Elgin Mills, Bernard, Gamble/19th.

DRL East- Queen, Gerrard, Danforth, Mortimer, Cosburn-O'connor, Millwood, Thorncliffe Park, Flemingdon Park, Eglinton, Barber Greene, Lawrence, Bond, York Mills, Sheppard, Van Horne, Seneca College, Gordon Baker/McNicoll, Woodbine/Steeles, Denison, Esna-14th, 407, 7.

DRL west leg as King West, Queen (Parkdale), Lansdowne South, Bloor, Annette, St Clair(Stockyards), Roger's, Eglinton and onwards.

I lived down the block from a subway station in Munich. We were on a residential street with single-family homes and duplexes. The station was never particularly busy, but it served the neighbourhood rather well.

What you've just described is subway utopia, I'm salivating at the mouth just thinking of a system so idyllic :b ! The Beaches/Fallingbrook, West Hill or Long Branch could easily fit the mould for this type of mild intensification occuring on a local scale.

The line was on its way to the massive new Messe (trade fair complex).

So all it'd take to build a line to Rouge Hill is rennovate Port Union Mall into some massive complex? Better pitch this to the mayor asap :lol . Seriously though if either Eglinton or Sheppard entered Pickering to dense-enough-for-a-subway PTC there's no way in hell they could refuse UTSC, Malvern, the Zoo or Rouge Hill their stops on the line now!

The S-Bahn and U-bahn connections are seamless, and they're all very reliable. It doesn't hurt that the new stations are gorgeous. You should take a look, socialwoe.

I did, impressive what a city half our population size can do when meanwhile less than 30% of our surface area even has subways. Maybe the problem is our adhereness to strict guideways which of course brings me back to my jog initiative.

Jogging a line to the closeby dense node/trippers isn't lunacy, it just maximises ridership. Interlining also seems to work for Munich as the cost of building multiple lines to serve the same downtown core is ridiculous. Better to follow the same guideway til point of destination spurring off occurs.

Ditto on the creation of crosstown travel. Queen-Eglinton completely covers the periphery of southern Toronto, allowing everyone within the core access and better service to out-of-towners no longer living their lives around scheduling when the next GO train chooses to show its ass up!

I can see it now:FavelaTown,

Sounds way cooler than 'Zoo' and doesn't redundancy the station name 'Meadowvale'. Gee thanks man, you've ideally protrayed a situation far less grim than the marl quarries, calcified industrial relics and undetermined levels of hazardous, potentially radioactive dust floating through the oxygen supply of your Finch West and Markville extraganzas called Quagmire Junction and Hell's Embargo brought to you by the Corpoaration of Public Idiocy ! Oh yeah the Donalda Golf Clubbers of Graydon Hall say hello:evil !

 

[socialwoe]

Hello :\ ?

 

[scarberiankhatru]

"Oh yeah the Donalda Golf Clubbers of Graydon Hall say hello"

Dentonia Park, Don Valley, Scarlett Woods, and, especially, since it'll get two stations, Oakdale, say hi right back at ya.

 

[socialwoe]

Dentonia Park, Don Valley, Scarlett Woods, and, especially, since it'll get two stations, Oakdale, say hi right back at ya.

Not to sound condescending which never seems to stop you but how. stupid. are. you? The TTC themselves built Victoria Park and York Mills stations, it's not a plan, they already exist and thrive extremely well. Are you harassing the city of Toronto's public transit itself now and not just one enthusiastic planner who no matter what can't be accused of the non-patriotism you're displaying right now!?!

You cannot build an Eglinton West line and exclude Scarlett Rd, you'd even run a subway up there. Oakdale Golf Club is irrelevant, you care about the lands along an intermediate tunnel now? Jane-Sheppard is the densest neighbourhood west of Keele, HQ of Toronto's Latin community, commercial on 3 sides, library and other services, 10, 000 residents. Oakdale Stn. has very little to do with the golf course. It'd link the arteries east and west of the 400, take over 84+ routes along the hwy, direct hospital loopings (Humber and Worker's Comp) and YRT 360 to Vellore/Wonderland. However Scarb, remember land use is not constant, so when the turf gets rough, the redevelopment gets going :evil ! By the way you excluded several other courses my lines would run by :lol !