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adma
Guest
It's not an anti-condo argument. It's an anti-tasteless-schlock argument. Point is, I wouldn't trust your aesthetic judgment...
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socialwoe
Guest
Nope it's just another ingenious plan you wish you had thought of first
! It takes care of the most pressing issues a cross-town subway would face: speed, reliability and accessibility. 1. Speed- your complaint that my Eglinton Queen line would be so slow in terms of getting across the city in constrast to other alternatives dissipates when in fact two (2) crosstown trips would circumnavigate the the heart of the city from Rouge Hill all the way to Pearson then south across to Victoria Park in under an hour. Each connecting directly or relatively close to subway interchanges with other lines which appeases the rush crowd without compromising access for niche communities.
2. Reliability- need Durham or MCC in a hurry at 10 p.m. ? Bingo! No more pedantic jaunts at Union. Just step off you local train and acroos to the express platform (think: Yonge-Sheppard considering both eb/wb were side by side so that the track on the north end was an express line). It's so self-explainatory I need not hash this point any further.
3. Accessibilty- ever heard the military phrase "Be all that you can be"? Maybe Toronto needs to take that appraoch for building subways. Why build miles of subway for far out areas when the major intersections overlying are neglected? If express lines takes care of the rush crowd, then the local line can have stops at half- and full-concession roads putting all Torontonians within 10 mins of the subway, subways for all.
See not only have I justified my subways to Pearson and Rouge Hill, Long Branch and Fallingbrook but I've devised a way to make it ultra superior to commuter rail and highways, lowering greenhouse gas emissions, reducing traffic and making roadways safer, climate controlled, could be run 24/7 and not prone to surface malfunctions. If anything should be pitched to the mayor, this is it
!You'd rethink that if you knew I'd re/design every station into an artistic masterpiece, hence bathroom-looking stops goodbye!
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adma
Guest
Sort of like today's vulgar Bridle Path McMansions are "artistic masterpieces" compared to the 50s/60s modern dwellings they replaced?
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scarberiankhatru
Guest
So the Zoo needs two subways but major intersections like Don Mills & Finch needs zero? Kipling & Bethridge needs two subways but Jane & Finch needs zero?
Please, don't elaborate further.
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socialwoe
Guest
Why do you even bother replying if you fail to read my posts properly? I never said anything about the Sheppard Line, it was an proposal for an express crosstown subway via Eglinton-Queen. You're against a line linking Durham-Peel because it's your belief no one would ride it since it'd be too long a trek. Concurrent local+express service on the same line appeases everyone, win, win, win! And for the record I feel it's incredibly stupid and wasteful to build another subway so close atop one that's only 1 km south but oh well.
Oh and I never proposed a subway stop at Bethridge and Kipling, it's Bethridge/27 and Kipling/Belfeilds adjacent Etobicoke North GO.
Yeah maybe I shouldn't...but...oh well...can't help myself...must rebutt...must...retaliate! 24/7 service, air-conditioned, paded seats with arm rests, throw in on-board vending machines, overhead compartment. In a nutshell, luxury service for little over a toonie.
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ahrvojic
Guest
Article
Development bid adds spark to call for subway extension
MIKE ADLER
02/08/07 19:06:00
Plans for condominium towers north of Hwy. 401 at Kennedy Road are sparking a renewed crusade for a Sheppard Subway extension to Scarborough.
Tridel, the area's leading condominium builder, closed a deal last month to buy a 17-acre (6.8-hectare) property on Sufferance Road for a development it calls Metrogate.
The former Toronto Sufferance Truck Terminal, on which Tridel plans 2,100 residential units, a two-acre park and some commercial and office space, also reserves land for a future transit station at a point where a GO rail line and a possible Sheppard extension intersect.
"What you have on that site is the potential for a second Union Station," Ward 40 Councillor Norm Kelly (Scarborough-Agincourt) said this week.
But while declaring his hopes for a "Union Station East" there in the near future, Kelly said he opposed an earlier version of the development plan because its density was "far too high" for what Sufferance, a dead-end street off Kennedy, could handle.
Kelly said the city, at his urging, won concessions by taking a development application by the previous landowner, the Canderel Group of Companies, to the Ontario Municipal Board.
The property was, however, designated for office uses in the former City of Scarborough's Agincourt Centre Secondary Plan and as an employment area in the new City of Toronto Official Plan. The city had wanted it kept as future commercial and office space, Kelly said.
Instead, the terminal, which closed its warehouse Nov. 30 and is being demolished, will be transformed into Tridel's first "green neighbourhood, including what will be some of Scarborough's tallest buildings.
The first of Metrogate's modernist condo towers, going on sale this spring, will be 40 storeys, Tridel vice-president Jim Ritchie said.
Tridel, which has committed to build all of its condo towers according to the Canada Green Building Council's standards for heating and cooling efficiency, is also looking at other "green" systems such as electricity production through co-generation and state-of-the-art stormwater retention for Metrogate, which is beside a section of the erosion-prone Highland Creek.
But the first thing Tridel will change is the name of the road, Sufferance, to something "a little more appealing," Ritchie said, noting that neither the terminal property nor the Delta Toronto East hotel beside it have a Sufferance address.
Ritchie said the company plans only 38,500 square metres of office and retail space, far less than the city wanted, but added, "How deep is that office market? You have to be realistic."
Tridel has built half of the 19,000 condominiums in Scarborough, including a large development near Sufferance in the Tam O'Shanter area. After developing condominiums in the former city for a quarter century, Ritchie suggested, "we have a good feel for what works in the community."
Tridel believes "the infrastructure is there" to handle Metrogate's traffic and though the development sets land aside for a station, "it's clearly not in the plans for the immediate future," he said.
Still fearing "we'll get the traffic and no relief," however, Kelly said it's the station that "could make that site work" and he will encourage fellow councillors and Mayor David Miller to push senior governments on its behalf.
"I want the mayor up there at the earliest opportunity," he said. "I'm taking them out there to walk the site with them."
The Scarborough Community Council chairperson admitted, though, that since the Toronto Transit Commission is determined to first extend the Spadina line to York University, prospects for the Sheppard line extension he wants from Don Mills Road to Scarborough Centre aren't bright.
"Right now, it's a long shot."
Kelly said he was looking to the private sector and the Conservative government of Stephen Harper for the money, since a federal election looms.
"These guys have to have an urban agenda," he said.
The councillor rejected the suggestion another form of rapid transit such as light rail could serve the purpose more cheaply.
"What does a car give you? Speed and comfort. The only form of transit that can compete is a subway," Kelly said.
Development bid adds spark to call for subway extension
MIKE ADLER
02/08/07 19:06:00
Plans for condominium towers north of Hwy. 401 at Kennedy Road are sparking a renewed crusade for a Sheppard Subway extension to Scarborough.
Tridel, the area's leading condominium builder, closed a deal last month to buy a 17-acre (6.8-hectare) property on Sufferance Road for a development it calls Metrogate.
The former Toronto Sufferance Truck Terminal, on which Tridel plans 2,100 residential units, a two-acre park and some commercial and office space, also reserves land for a future transit station at a point where a GO rail line and a possible Sheppard extension intersect.
"What you have on that site is the potential for a second Union Station," Ward 40 Councillor Norm Kelly (Scarborough-Agincourt) said this week.
But while declaring his hopes for a "Union Station East" there in the near future, Kelly said he opposed an earlier version of the development plan because its density was "far too high" for what Sufferance, a dead-end street off Kennedy, could handle.
Kelly said the city, at his urging, won concessions by taking a development application by the previous landowner, the Canderel Group of Companies, to the Ontario Municipal Board.
The property was, however, designated for office uses in the former City of Scarborough's Agincourt Centre Secondary Plan and as an employment area in the new City of Toronto Official Plan. The city had wanted it kept as future commercial and office space, Kelly said.
Instead, the terminal, which closed its warehouse Nov. 30 and is being demolished, will be transformed into Tridel's first "green neighbourhood, including what will be some of Scarborough's tallest buildings.
The first of Metrogate's modernist condo towers, going on sale this spring, will be 40 storeys, Tridel vice-president Jim Ritchie said.
Tridel, which has committed to build all of its condo towers according to the Canada Green Building Council's standards for heating and cooling efficiency, is also looking at other "green" systems such as electricity production through co-generation and state-of-the-art stormwater retention for Metrogate, which is beside a section of the erosion-prone Highland Creek.
But the first thing Tridel will change is the name of the road, Sufferance, to something "a little more appealing," Ritchie said, noting that neither the terminal property nor the Delta Toronto East hotel beside it have a Sufferance address.
Ritchie said the company plans only 38,500 square metres of office and retail space, far less than the city wanted, but added, "How deep is that office market? You have to be realistic."
Tridel has built half of the 19,000 condominiums in Scarborough, including a large development near Sufferance in the Tam O'Shanter area. After developing condominiums in the former city for a quarter century, Ritchie suggested, "we have a good feel for what works in the community."
Tridel believes "the infrastructure is there" to handle Metrogate's traffic and though the development sets land aside for a station, "it's clearly not in the plans for the immediate future," he said.
Still fearing "we'll get the traffic and no relief," however, Kelly said it's the station that "could make that site work" and he will encourage fellow councillors and Mayor David Miller to push senior governments on its behalf.
"I want the mayor up there at the earliest opportunity," he said. "I'm taking them out there to walk the site with them."
The Scarborough Community Council chairperson admitted, though, that since the Toronto Transit Commission is determined to first extend the Spadina line to York University, prospects for the Sheppard line extension he wants from Don Mills Road to Scarborough Centre aren't bright.
"Right now, it's a long shot."
Kelly said he was looking to the private sector and the Conservative government of Stephen Harper for the money, since a federal election looms.
"These guys have to have an urban agenda," he said.
The councillor rejected the suggestion another form of rapid transit such as light rail could serve the purpose more cheaply.
"What does a car give you? Speed and comfort. The only form of transit that can compete is a subway," Kelly said.
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scarberiankhatru
Guest
"Concurrent local+express service on the same line appeases everyone, win, win, win! And for the record I feel it's incredibly stupid and wasteful to build another subway so close atop one that's only 1 km south but oh well."
When there's already GO lines that get people from Durham to Peel in half the time the subway'd take? The Eglinton line should and will never go to Durham. Why build two subway lines where none would suffice? Those express lines would be obscene wastes of money.
You still seem to think I want a subway built straight along Finch but Jane & Finch could be served by the extended Sheppard line while Don Mills & Finch could be served by the Don Mills line...but these areas are only several times bigger and busier than Fallingbrook, so I guess they can make do with bus connections.
And you're right, it's Martin Grove and Dixon that gets two subways, not Belfields, but your lines are so circuitous that it's hard to tell where they're really going.
When there's already GO lines that get people from Durham to Peel in half the time the subway'd take? The Eglinton line should and will never go to Durham. Why build two subway lines where none would suffice? Those express lines would be obscene wastes of money.
You still seem to think I want a subway built straight along Finch but Jane & Finch could be served by the extended Sheppard line while Don Mills & Finch could be served by the Don Mills line...but these areas are only several times bigger and busier than Fallingbrook, so I guess they can make do with bus connections.
And you're right, it's Martin Grove and Dixon that gets two subways, not Belfields, but your lines are so circuitous that it's hard to tell where they're really going.
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scarberiankhatru
Guest
Re: the article from the Mirror.
If the Sheppard line's extended, there's other big projects that might get off the ground, like this one at Brimley & the 401: www.toronto.ca/legdocs/20.../it016.pdf
If the Sheppard line's extended, there's other big projects that might get off the ground, like this one at Brimley & the 401: www.toronto.ca/legdocs/20.../it016.pdf
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down on the upside
Guest
right beside dads cookie factory and the somewhat new industrial plant, i dont see what the attraction would be.
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scarberiankhatru
Guest
Sanmina is a high-tech plant like Celestica, making light electronic stuff...it's not exactly a petrochemical complex. And who wouldn't want to live next to Dad's Cookies? The appeal would be [probably] affordable condo units with great 401 access, right next to the RT, the mall, etc. Obviously, Annex residents wouldn't be moving out there in droves, but so what?
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down on the upside
Guest
whats happening to the field adjacent to this property? more suburban retail complexes? seems like that would be a better place for condos.
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scarberiankhatru
Guest
The field on the SW corner of Brimley & Progress is slated for residential towers, but since it's right next to a cardboard recycling plant, I'm not surprised nothing's happening. I don't know what'll happen to the SE corner.
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socialwoe
Guest
It's about convenience for one. Aside from Union GO you're really at the mercy of dodgy bus schedules at unsafe outdoor haunts. Two, alot of people coming in from the suburbs don't consider Union/CBD as their final destination, hence desire better options than what they currently have. Three, an express service would be very compatible to GO and does a better job of connecting people directly to major hubs/trippers
So I still haven't convinced you? A line to Morningside is in current demand (check: list of TTC overcrowded routes) and demand will only grow as 750, 000+ residents east of McCowan and over a million in Durham (mainly in Pickering and Oshawa) need a rapid link other than dodgy, periodic GO and worthless bus routes
. Why it will be Eglinton, most direct feeder into the city, naturally ending at busy Kingston which in turn runs through dense West Hill with Centenary, CCHP, UTSC and highway connections closeby not to mention the limitless potential of Port Union/West Rouge. Dude make the squirrels stop screaming :lol !Not two one. Built concurerently and adjacent to the local subway, express only requires an extra DWA strip a la Davisville or Yonge-Sheppard
.Nope that'd be your Finch West, Weston to nowhere, Markville dreck :rolleyes ! An obscene waste would be to build countless redundancies throughout central Toronto when the outlying areas get shafted again and again and again. Every concession road needs it's stop, have said road's bus run out of that station so that everyone can get to their destinations quicker. That's how I see it. New bus routes in the east too, a Meadowvale route, a SGC, A Brimorton, a West Hill. It's not all about subways, you know.
If the tunnel's already bored, stations already built, simply laying a third set of tracks and some additional exits, it costs nothing. Besides the point is to accomodate to the needs of transit riders, not penny-pinching politicians we elected to do what's best for us!
Jogging 6kms northwest to hit Jane when the same can be accomplished in under 4, above ground and with room for growth, hmm? I'm done reiterating the futility of DM. Think Sheppard, Scarborough and Spadina were underutilized, you ain't see nothing yet!
When they aren't adjacent to the Former City of Toronto and mark the regional boundary (although defunct now still the symbolic border) yes they must contend, the same way you'd have anyone living east of Coxwell (Queen), east of McCowan(BD), east of Kennedy (Eglinton) and east of Agincourt (Sheppard) contend with substandard service til oblivion.
I do my best to confuse you, it seems I succeeded :evil !
We can be optimistic more and more factories will relocate to other areas as the STC continues to grow.
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scarberiankhatru
Guest
The Sheppard line wouldn't be jogging, but I'd rather jog a subway to Jane & Finch than death march two subways to the Zoo.
But people near Mortimer and Don Mills demand a subway! You'd give them one in the other thread...
750,000+? And all of them living in Tridel's new 400 phase, master-planned condo community called ZooPlace, right?
Almost every surface route in the city is on that map. Hmm...Eglinton West's not there...
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socialwoe
Guest
Sure you would because subway overkill is your signature, I get it :rolleyes . Now while you do that, the Sheppard West Zoom hits Pearson, Woodbine, Humber College, Albion and Brampton in one grand swoop. Someone should rethink their interpretation of death march if they'd sacrifice the accessiblity of several outlying intersections in the Jane-Finch community for a singular one forcing these once bus-dependent people to pedantic pedestrial suffering. Also if a subway made it as far as Malvern Town Centre only a dumbass wouldn't just finish the journey 2kms east to Meadowvale (you did say you'd run a subway out for several miles to an amusement park once out of spite and malice for my ingenuity remember
!?!). It's called compromise Scarb, maybe when you're done shrilling in glee over the sound of your own thoughts you'll come back to the reasoning table with a better appreciation for radical but good-intended criticism of apathetic attitudes the majority of the so-called transit enthusiasts have towards improving the system overall. You're only boosting my ego every time you scuff off ways to make Don Mills more than a mere concession feeder which essentially would be simply that.
Intermediates like Mortimer, Barber Greene, Bond and Van Horne transcend the mediocrity the DRL would be and make it at least adequately average. What you're doing is fundementally taking buses and bury them underground, nice planning there Sparky, except it'll cost billions, money that could be spent on building the greatest, most used subway line in Canada. Oh and just to irk you one further, my express line, through downtown it wyes along CN corridor hence supplimenting your DRL til oblivon and then some :evil !
:eek I'd show you stats but I know what happened the last time I used facts to prove my viewpoints. More people will live in east Scarborough, spurred along by and in anticipation of subway lines to transport the load. We can't be concerned with the minute details yet, we're just at the planning stage.
Yes but several routes that it intercepts were. You think it's a pleasure to waste over an hour of your life getting form Steeles to BD? This is the infinite value of additional east-west lines coming back into the discussion. You'd run lines up Weston? and Don Mills. So friggin what? What about all the other areas in the northeast and northwest that'd be better served by horizontal alignments even at the slim risk of overcapacitating YUS (which wouldn't happen for decades which by then a non-subway or pre-metro along DRL's path would be in place).