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OneCity said:
I used to not like vegetables as a kid. Then I grew up, changed my preference and understand better. Maybe she thinks differently now too.
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"City Building" - now that is a new one - let's spend a lot of money to replicate a line in the name of City building. Call it what it is - Subways, subways, subways - no lousy streetcars for us. Its perfect that Oxford is pushing this, the only building will be the increase in their land value and the value of the mall.
 
coopEng said:
"City Building" - now that is a new one - let's spend a lot of money to replicate a line in the name of City building. Call it what it is - Subways, subways, subways - no lousy streetcars for us. Its perfect that Oxford is pushing this, the only building will be the increase in their land value and the value of the mall.
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Dont get caught up in focus on Oxford of course they would want it. The voters of Scarborough want the SSE too which is far more important and call it what you want the City has a divide and could use some better connections.

I want to see streetcars and LRT too. But only where they should be, not an either or, not where others want to put them.
 
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OneCity said:
Dont get caught up in focus on Oxford. Of course they would want it. The voters want the SSE and call it what you want. The City has a divide and could use some better connection.
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I agree - but I think the point that a lot of the comments make is simple (and it sums up a lot of pages of this tread) - its being sold not for its value to commuters, but as a "I want that" project. The endless debates, the flip flopping from politicians, the almost monthly cost increases and really its all on the entire City's dime. Scarborough voters in a slim majority may want the subway, but its popularity its not as great as you preach it to be. Its the idea of the subway that is great - reality is a lot of money to connect an arbitrary point in Scarborough (compared to connecting several points in Scarborough). Is Scarborough Town Centre really that important? Ridership numbers and other non political benchmarks say its not.
 
OneCity said:
I think Keesmat is very much right that City Building is needed as main criteria. lol. Popcorn ready for this election.
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Yes, popcorn.
TOareaFan said:
Just makes it worse.....in my view of the world, serving people is the number 1 priority in transit....city building comes 2nd (and a pretty distant one at that) for me.
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I agree. Remember when we both said this subway would precipitate the sheppard east subway? Looks that is next after this.
 
denfromoakvillemilton said:
Yes, popcorn.

I agree. Remember when we both said this subway would precipitate the sheppard east subway? Looks that is next after this.
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I don't remember saying that....I don't know enough about them to have made that statement....I do believe that local jealousies over "what the other guy got/has" leads far to many of our transit decisions...but I don't remember saying something as specific as that this subway would lead to Sheppard East.
 
OneCity said:
Yes. I used to not like vegetables as a kid. Then I grew up and understand better
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Her credibility is being dragged through the mud by John Tory over SmartTrack and SSE. She keeps contradicting herself. Ridership suddenly became "not a primary consideration in choosing technology". Just about every piece of data given to council turned out to be wrong. She sold us this one stop subway with LRT as part of the package within the same funding, which also proved to be so clearly wrong only 6 months later. What next? Will she designate STC a priority neighbourhood in order to manufacture a social equity case for the subway? Because the excuses are getting real weak at this point.

If she ever again comes up with another transit plan for Scarborough, I am not going to believe it. But hey I'm glad to hear you like vegetables. Zing! You win.
 
coopEng said:
I agree - but I think the point that a lot of the comments make is simple (and it sums up a lot of pages of this tread) - its being sold not for its value to commuters, but as a "I want that" project. The endless debates, the flip flopping from politicians, the almost monthly cost increases and really its all on the entire City's dime. Scarborough voters in a slim majority may want the subway, but its popularity its not as great as you preach it to be. Its the idea of the subway that is great - reality is a lot of money to connect an arbitrary point in Scarborough (compared to connecting several points in Scarborough). Is Scarborough Town Centre really that important? Ridership numbers and other non political benchmarks say its not.
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This should go to show SCC is very important to the residents or we wouldn't be seeing this project where it is after all this debate, Political assaults, flip flopping, elections, Mayors and loss of other lines to build it. You see it as a mall. Thats fine. But I see it as the main Central hub of Scarborough that should not be isolated one stop in advance. And also based on whats built in North York, Vaughan and arguably Etobicoke with Islington Although Islington is more of old street market and debating that vs. malls will go nowhere. But the BDL reaches far further near the border of Etobicoke none the less when compared to Scarborough

To be fought this hard exhaustively against the long standing wishes of the voters is certainly not good for "City Building"
 
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I thought Transit City was hated for being city building but I guess people are supposed to love this. At least one city does.
 
OneCity said:
This should go to show SCC is very important to the residents or we wouldn't be seeing this project where it is after all this debate, assault, flip flopping, elections, Mayors and loss of other lines to build it. You see it as a mall. Thats fine. But I see it as the main Central hub of Scarborough that should not be isolated one stop in advance.
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Part of the problem is that scarborough is so used to STC being a hub they can't envision a world where that isn't the case. This subway is costing the equivalent of a lrt on every major street in scarborough which would lead to other subways, go or smart track but because they haven't had transit in forever and because they are so used to this hub they can't see how this is a collosal waste which will forever eat up all their funds for anything else
 
coopEng said:
I agree - but I think the point that a lot of the comments make is simple (and it sums up a lot of pages of this tread) - its being sold not for its value to commuters, but as a "I want that" project. The endless debates, the flip flopping from politicians, the almost monthly cost increases and really its all on the entire City's dime. Scarborough voters in a slim majority may want the subway, but its popularity its not as great as you preach it to be. Its the idea of the subway that is great - reality is a lot of money to connect an arbitrary point in Scarborough (compared to connecting several points in Scarborough). Is Scarborough Town Centre really that important? Ridership numbers and other non political benchmarks say its not.
Click to expand...

Of course in the polling, if you ask scarbough residents if they prefer the subway or LRT proposal, the LRT has won by slim margins. Of course, the answers you receive in the polling depends on the exact wording on the question and other factors, but this does show that SSE support, even in Scarborough, is not universal.

I'd love to see a mayoral candidate run on providing alternate solutions to transit in Scarborough. This doesn't just mean proposing going back to the original LRT proposal, but other solutions such as building the Scarborough LRT + Crosstown East with enhanced fare integration on GO Transit, for example. Surely there is somebody in this city that can convince voters that all of that is a better deal than a single stop $3.5 Billion subway that'll save commuters, at best, 5 minutes (according to City Staff).
 
Cobra said:
like above, we all have bosses.
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If professionals cannot be kept separate from political interference, then why do we have them around to begin with? Why do we pay their salaries? I mean, it's not like John Tory listens to them anyway when he doesn't like their advice, as we've seen many times.
 
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nfitz said:
Only 37% of them. More want LRT - which isn't surprise, as it serves more people:

https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/20...nts-back-lrt-but-only-slightly-poll-says.html
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Careful - this is a Star Article - they are biased, right? Edit - OneCity already said it lol
TheTigerMaster said:
Of course in the polling, if you ask scarbough residents if they prefer the subway or LRT proposal, the LRT has won by slim margins. Of course, the answers you receive in the polling depends on the exact wording on the question and other factors, but this does show that SSE support, even in Scarborough, is not universal.

I'd love to see a mayoral candidate run on providing alternate solutions to transit in Scarborough. This doesn't just mean proposing going back to the original LRT proposal, but other solutions such as building the Scarborough LRT + Crosstown East with enhanced fare integration on GO Transit, for example. Surely there is somebody in this city that can convince voters that all of that is a better deal than a single stop $3.5 Billion subway that'll save commuters, at best, 5 minutes (according to City Staff).
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Exactly, I would rather ride a bus (or LRT) to a GO Train Station in Scarborough if the second part of the trip was an integrated transfer. If the idea is to connect Scarborough then you actually want to go away from Scarborough Town Centre because it already has a connection. $3.5B will pay for a lot of free rides downtown (assuming RER is up and running before a shovel hits the ground for this subway).
 
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