[sixrings]

Nobody seems interested in offering more LRT. They all want to go back to the gimped Scarborough LRT plan. Heck, I don't think even Olivia Chow promised advancing the SM/EELRT to an earlier timeframe.

What if you could have lrt on finch,sheppard,ellesmere,lawrence,and eglinton east of Don mills connecting to a drl long to finch and smart track stations where applicable? Would that not serve more people and be better money spent than this bloor extension? Yes this is lrt overkill but right now we're thinking of building a one stop subway overkill.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

The subway opponents on Council really do need to get their act together. These motions to simply cancel the project aren't ever going to gain traction. Opposing the project isn't good enough; they need to offer a viable package of alternatives.

Offer up one or two extra go stations with fare integration, SLRT extended to Malvern and the Crosstown East. This'll probably cost more than $3.56 Billion, so propose to use Toronto's infrastructure levies and federal funding to make up the gap. This debate has never been about the amount of money spent, but rather the value of the spending. Advocate for it in the media. If politicians want to oppose it, let them live or die on their opposition.

 

[kEiThZ]

What missing stops on the LRT? Are you referring to Midland?

Malvern on the SLRT. All the stops east of Morningside on SELRT. And Sheppard on Eglinton East (and I think this should actually extend to Finch or even Neilson to completely eliminate the Morningside bus.

 

[kEiThZ]

What if you could have lrt on finch,sheppard,ellesmere,lawrence,and eglinton east of Don mills connecting to a drl long to finch and smart track stations where applicable? Would that not serve more people and be better money spent than this bloor extension? Yes this is lrt overkill but right now we're thinking of building a one stop subway overkill.

See. This type of "what if" post is why LRT proponents are losing. A bird in hand is worth two in the bush. The subway looks like it will happen. Especially with the coming PCs. Want simple voters like me to support the alternative? Don't offer me a hypothetical. Offer me an alternative plan.

But every non-Scarborough politician who is fighting the subway isn't offering more LRT. Their only argument is that the SSE costs too much and it's one spot. Meanwhile, half the people who ride the SRT every morning are like, "Who the hell gets on at those other stops anyway?" This is the disconnect between transit advocates and the general (and voting) public.

An LRT plan can win. Can't be conditional though. None of this, we'll build this line first and then these other two after everything else. That doesn't fly because then people know that when push comes to shove, you'll cancel those other two lines. See the already cut stops from the proposed LRTs for reference. Offer all 3 LRTs in their entirety as orginally planned. Then watch Scarborough residents march into their own councillors offices to demand they support LRT.

Offer to just build the Scarborough LRT and then Eglinton East in 10-15 years? All you'll get is, " I live in West Hill. What do I care if they build subway or LRT to replace the RT? It's not like this will impact me."

 

[sixrings]

That sounds very similar to the original proposal which got regected and got us here.

The subway opponents on Council really do need to get their act together. These motions to simply cancel the project aren't ever going to gain traction. Opposing the project isn't good enough; they need to offer a viable package of alternatives.

Offer up one or two extra go stations with fare integration, SLRT extended to Malvern and the Crosstown East. This'll probably cost more than $3.56 Billion, so propose to use Toronto's infrastructure levies and federal funding to make up the gap. This debate has never been about the amount of money spent, but rather the value of the spending. Advocate for it in the media. If politicians want to oppose it, let them live or die on their opposition.

 

[sixrings]

I never said it had to be built in stages. In fact I'd prefer it all get built at the same time.

See. This type of "what if" post is why LRT proponents are losing. A bird in hand is worth two in the bush. The subway looks like it will happen. Especially with the coming PCs. Want simple voters like me to support the alternative? Don't offer me a hypothetical. Offer me an alternative plan.

But every non-Scarborough politician who is fighting the subway isn't offering more LRT. Their only argument is that the SSE costs too much and it's one spot. Meanwhile, half the people who ride the SRT every morning are like, "Who the hell gets on at those other stops anyway?" This is the disconnect between transit advocates and the general (and voting) public.

An LRT plan can win. Can't be conditional though. None of this, we'll build this line first and then these other two after everything else. That doesn't fly because then people know that when push comes to shove, you'll cancel those other two lines. See the already cut stops from the proposed LRTs for reference. Offer all 3 LRTs in their entirety as orginally planned. Then watch Scarborough residents march into their own councillors offices to demand they support LRT.

Offer to just build the Scarborough LRT and then Eglinton East in 10-15 years? All you'll get is, " I live in West Hill. What do I care if they build subway or LRT to replace the RT? It's not like this will impact me."

 

[andrewpmk]

What are the 34 bus routes that are supposed to use the Scarborough Centre bus terminal?

There are currently 14 TTC bus routes, 4 GO bus routes and a few privately operated bus routes (Megabus, etc). Will there be a large number of Durham Region Transit and York Region Transit bus routes serving the new bus terminal?

 

[nfitz]

The Star is not neutral in this debate.

There's no indication that the Forum is cooking the results. Why would you expect that when the 7-stop LRT has a forecast 2031 ridership of over 100,000 a day, when this new subway proposal is less than 58,000? And that ignores 46,000 riders per day forecast in the old Eglinton East studies. With the same money, wd could easily have the Eglinton East LRT plus the 7-stop SRT replaced - so that's 146,000 riders a day versus 58,000. And why stop there, you could also build the Sheppard East LRT from this pool of money (we'll ignore for a minute it's already fully funded). That was also forecast to be 46,000 a day. So 192,000 riders versus 58,000

Clearly only someone who hates Scarborough would choose subway over LRT.

If their polls had any validity George Smitherman would have been Mayor.

??? The last forum poll in the election had Rob Ford at 44% compared to 38% for Smitherman. The Star (and CityTV - who have right-wing bias) were using Nanos back then. I don't think any of the pollsters are more neutral than Nanos. And the last Nanos poll also showed Smitherman in the lead. So I'm not sure where you are pulling this from.

We just need to put it on the ballot

People don't vote in elections over these kind of issues. It might sway 5%. Cho won because he had a name - didn't all the candidates support subway? Didn't all the last municipal byelection candidates support subway? How does that have any meaning.

Careful - this is a Star Article - they are biased, right?

Only if you are starting in a pretty biased place yourself. Demonstrated by the fake news above about the Stars 2010 election polling.

Sheppard East should run to the zoo, not just till Morningside.

People have been saying this here, since it was first proposed almost 10 years ago. See https://urbantoronto.ca/forum/threads/transit-city-plan.5714/page-30#post-168872[/QUOTE]

 

[APTA-2048]

What are the 34 bus routes that are supposed to use the Scarborough Centre bus terminal?

There are currently 14 TTC bus routes, 4 GO bus routes and a few privately operated bus routes (Megabus, etc). Will there be a large number of Durham Region Transit and York Region Transit bus routes serving the new bus terminal?

DRT would like to operate to STC in the near future. It'd also be nice if intercity buses continued to serve the new terminal.

 

[pstogios]

A de-amalgamation scenario

I would absolutely love this.

I would love it if people like you were obligated to find your own way to pay for ridiculous overbuild transit plans.

 

[salsa]

The subway opponents on Council really do need to get their act together. These motions to simply cancel the project aren't ever going to gain traction. Opposing the project isn't good enough; they need to offer a viable package of alternatives.

Even if the opponents did exactly that (which I agree they should), that's not going to change anything. Anyone who followed the executive committee today should know just how hopelessly stubborn those Scarborough councillors are. To them a subway is all about respect. They want one no matter what cost, shape or form it comes in, and they want one on Sheppard too. "The time has come to build", as the mayor would say. In other words, there's a cliff coming so we need to step on that accelerator, close our eyes and don't look back. Nothing to worry about here.

 

[nfitz]

I would absolutely love this.

I would love it if people like you were obligated to find your own way to pay for ridiculous overbuild transit plans.

Agreed. Then we could go back to downtown having better services AND lower taxes than Scarborough.

 

[OneCity]

I would absolutely love this.

I would love it if people like you were obligated to find your own way to pay for ridiculous overbuild transit plans.

"people like you" lol.

You would actually lose bad in this deal on the long run as Scarborough would be helping to fund your massive upcoming projects.

 

[OneCity]

Agreed. Then we could go back to downtown having better services AND lower taxes than Scarborough.

Yes because the DRL alone wont cause any tax increases? Doesn't Perks want to raise taxes by an extra 2-2.5% already?

 

[nfitz]

Yes because the DRL alone wont cause any tax increases? Doesn't Perks want to raise taxes by an extra 2-2.5% already?

But remember what happened in 1998, after amalgamation? Now everyone pays the same property tax rate in the old Metro. But before they didn't.

Property taxes in Toronto were lower. Scarborough were the highest. So to make it work, Toronto's taxes went up 18.7%. And Scarboough's went down 5.5%. For residential at least (Toronto had higher rental/commercial rates - which was fine, look at where all the offices were ... Scar bough and York/East York had much lower commercial rates - this is why office growth in Scarborough York/East York has been stagnant for the last 20 years).

Here's the change in rates for 1998 (from page F7 of the Toronto Star - January 4, 1998):

I'd be quite happy for taxes to only drop about 15% instead of 18.7% to pay for the DRL. And I'd be quite happy for Scarborough to stop leaching off everyone else.