[dowlingm]

The St Clair idea would have only worked if that street was relaid with standard gauge track and pantograph wire with a common vehicle yard with Eglinton, with a pricey reworking of the interfaces with the subway. Since there doesn't seem to be interest in running an extended 511 up the hill to Gunns Loop even when the 4400s go into service they might as well have rolled the 512 into the "uptown network" thereby justifying the use of branchable LRT. But the timing didn't work.

I think as far as Lawrence West goes we'll have to see how TTC reorganises after Eglinton Crosstown opens - surely it won't tell people boarding at Kennedy they have to jog up Eglinton West-Lawrence West to access a 58 Malton but rather add a connector from the western terminus at Keele and Eglinton. East: the NIMBYism would be murderous no matter what you pick, not to mention any land acquisitions for construction or utilities, but going past Glendon would be a must for me - coming along Lawrence East from Don Mills, under the viaduct at Bayview, round the back of the French School in tunnel and moving uphill to arrive at a Mount Pleasant stop/station. Since this would cause intensification not to mention give incentives to expand the Glendon complex I suspect "tooth and nail" would be too gentle to describe the opposition.

 

[nfitz]

The St Clair idea would have only worked if that street was relaid with standard gauge track and pantograph wire with a common vehicle yard with Eglinton, with a pricey reworking of the interfaces with the subway. Since there doesn't seem to be interest in running an extended 511 up the hill to Gunns Loop even when the 4400s go into service they might as well have rolled the 512 into the "uptown network" thereby justifying the use of branchable LRT. But the timing didn't work.

Though what's the real cost of just ripping out the St. Clair track and replacing it with standard gauge? All they'd have to do is strip out the track and top level of concrete, and then relay it. I don't think it's any different than a typical track replacement project, like we've seen recently on virtually all of the downtown east-west routes. Now, you'd have to change the power system as well ... but apart from that, it's not particularly expensive. Just a summer shutdown. Though the station loops may get interesting ... I'm not sure the Transit City vehicles are designed to handle the Eglinton West curves ... that might be the downfall for that idea ... but I haven't checked.

 

[W. K. Lis]

Any talk of further transit expansion cannot be even looked at until AFTER the city election. Have to work on getting at least the current plans going.

 

[nfitz]

Any talk of further transit expansion cannot be even looked at until AFTER the city election. Have to work on getting at least the current plans going.

Which current plans? We have current plans for Jane, Don Mills, Lakeshore West, Lakeshore East, and Phase 2 of Finch, Eglinton, Sheppard East, SRT to Malvern, not to mention the DRL as current plans. If only we could have all of these funded before the election!

 

[Hipster Duck]

I don't know if anything on Lawrence beyond a Rapid Bus (so, Viva/Zum-style "BRT") is defensible, especially after Eglinton goes in, and if we ever get around to building a proper LRT on Kingston Road.

Lawrence manages to crawl through low density suburbia throughout most of its length and is far away from most major trip generators (hospitals, schools, major malls).

Beyond what we have, what is under construction and the identified priorities that nfitz mentioned I think the only remaining corridors in the city that warrant any rapid transit of any form whatsoever probably narrow down to:

Finch east
Sheppard from Yonge to Downsview
Eglinton East-Kennedy-UTS-Malvern (maybe)
Queensway (not much existing ridership, but a lot of development potential)
Maybe rebuilding the section of the 501 from Sunnyside to Long Branch to Transit City standards/gauge.

Beyond that, everything else strikes me as being somewhat superfluous and a "nice to have", but not really necessary.

 

[Rainforest]

Before starting LRT in any new corridor, the Eglinton and Finch corridors should be completed. Incomplete LRT lines create unnecessary transfers in the system.

Eglinton needs its western leg to the airport funded. Finch West needs at least the section from Keele to Yonge restored, and a strong case can be made for extending the line along Finch East.

After that, either Lawrence / Dixon LRT or Wilson / York Mills / Ellesmere LRT might make sense. It is hard to say which of the two is better. Speaking of Lawrence, the length of required underground sections would be nontrivial. Bathurst to Bayview will have to be tunneled, and if so, the line could continue east under the Glendon campus, to emerge just west of Leslie. Lawrence is wide between Bathurst and Jane, but space will be an issue west of Jane, and the jog to Dixon will likely be in a tunnel.

I would not consider extending the St Clair line further west. A short extension to Jane probably makes sense, but for going much further than that, the St Clair line is way too slow. It takes almost 30 min to get from Yonge to Keele. At that rate, a trip from Yonge to the airport would take well over an hour.

For comparison, Eglinton LRT will travel from Yonge to Keele in about 12 min.

 

[nfitz]

I would not consider extending the St Clair line further west. A short extension to Jane probably makes sense, but for going much further than that, the St Clair line is way too slow.

Though once you extend about 2 km to Jane ... another 4 km on Dundas to Islington station on Bloor is tempting to provide better network connectivity. Not that anyone would travel all the Way from Islington to Yonge.

 

[11th]

Finch West needs at least the section from Keele to Yonge restored, and a strong case can be made for extending the line along Finch East.

The last thing you want is to encourage Finch West people to take unnecessary trips on the Yonge subway. If they are heading downtown, use Spadina; Mid-town? Spadina and Crosstown. Extend Sheppard to Spadina. There's nothing on Finch between Keele and Yonge (and also Yonge to Leslie).

 

[Rainforest]

The last thing you want is to encourage Finch West people to take unnecessary trips on the Yonge subway. If they are heading downtown, use Spadina; Mid-town? Spadina and Crosstown. Extend Sheppard to Spadina.

Finch West people who want to travel downtown, will use Spadina subway even if the LRT line is extended to Yonge. At the same time, a substantial number of people take the Finch West route to reach destinations in the Finch / Yonge / Sheppard area of North York. There is no good reason to force those riders to transfer from LRT to bus at Keele.

There's nothing on Finch between Keele and Yonge (and also Yonge to Leslie).

Not much between Keele and Dufferin, but a lot of trip generators are located between Dufferin and Bathurst: several highrises on the south side of Finch, a hospital in the south, then a school on the north side closer to Bathurst, two plazas on the east side of Bathurst. LRT is certainly warranted there.

Yonge to Leslie, actually even to Don Mills, is low-rise residential and, indeed, will not generate many rides. In addition, that section of Finch East is rather narrow. If Finch East LRT ever materializes at all, I would not mind to place the tracks in the Hydro Corridor from Yonge to Don Mills. Surprisingly, the HC is closer to some trip generators (Bayview Mall at Cummer, and the GO station) than the Finch proper; the only drawback is that parallel local bus service will be needed on Finch.

 

[Rainforest]

Though once you extend about 2 km to Jane ... another 4 km on Dundas to Islington station on Bloor is tempting to provide better network connectivity. Not that anyone would travel all the Way from Islington to Yonge.

This is a possibility. My only concern is that for anyone traveling east or downtown, taking a Jane or Royal York bus to Bloor subway will be a faster option than taking the streetcar to Islington. That may result in low streetcar ridership west of Jane, and it will be hard to justify the construction costs.

 

[nfitz]

This is a possibility. My only concern is that for anyone traveling east or downtown, taking a Jane or Royal York bus to Bloor subway will be a faster option than taking the streetcar to Islington. That may result in low streetcar ridership west of Jane, and it will be hard to justify the construction costs.

It might well be.

 

[rbt]

Though what's the real cost of just ripping out the St. Clair track and replacing it with standard gauge? All they'd have to do is strip out the track and top level of concrete, and then relay it.

The straight track would be pretty cheap (couple of million). The real trick is the custom built special trackwork (loops and intersections) which can be a few million per location.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Before starting LRT in any new corridor, the Eglinton and Finch corridors should be completed. Incomplete LRT lines create unnecessary transfers in the system.

Eglinton needs its western leg to the airport funded. Finch West needs at least the section from Keele to Yonge restored, and a strong case can be made for extending the line along Finch East.

After that, either Lawrence / Dixon LRT or Wilson / York Mills / Ellesmere LRT might make sense. It is hard to say which of the two is better. Speaking of Lawrence, the length of required underground sections would be nontrivial. Bathurst to Bayview will have to be tunneled, and if so, the line could continue east under the Glendon campus, to emerge just west of Leslie. Lawrence is wide between Bathurst and Jane, but space will be an issue west of Jane, and the jog to Dixon will likely be in a tunnel.

I would not consider extending the St Clair line further west. A short extension to Jane probably makes sense, but for going much further than that, the St Clair line is way too slow. It takes almost 30 min to get from Yonge to Keele. At that rate, a trip from Yonge to the airport would take well over an hour.

For comparison, Eglinton LRT will travel from Yonge to Keele in about 12 min.

I think One should be LRT and one should be a subway IMO. I don't know if the demand is there.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

This should be considered for a second subway for scarborough in the future.

 

[drum118]

Though what's the real cost of just ripping out the St. Clair track and replacing it with standard gauge? All they'd have to do is strip out the track and top level of concrete, and then relay it. I don't think it's any different than a typical track replacement project, like we've seen recently on virtually all of the downtown east-west routes. Now, you'd have to change the power system as well ... but apart from that, it's not particularly expensive. Just a summer shutdown. Though the station loops may get interesting ... I'm not sure the Transit City vehicles are designed to handle the Eglinton West curves ... that might be the downfall for that idea ... but I haven't checked.

Its more than just ripping the rail and concrete out to convert to standard gauge.

You will have to remove all the steel ties that hold the rail in place as the anchor plats for the rail will have to be change as well.

The other option to deal with the anchor plates is to cut one side off and weld new ones on, but there are issues doing this. The big issue is to make sure those new plates are in the correct position at the time of welding. It will only take a few wrong location to cause rail and wheel problems. Then you have to repaint it. Those plates are welded to the ties in a special jig to make sure everything is in the correct position before welding.

It comes a catch 22 to either weld new anchors on or go down to the base slab and reinstall new ties. Its time and money as well disruption of service. It will be more than a few months, more like a year to 16 months.

The original thinking when TC came out and Jane St line was built, that 512 would be converted to standard gauge when it came time to replace the tracks. By doing so, you disconnect the line from the rest of the system and use the new carhouse.This would deal with the Bathurst hill as well deadhead time to/from the yard.

By doing this, you get a chance to fix the screw spots caused by the city errors.