[doady]

I think that the midtown rail line is the best route for frequent regional rail in the whole GTA. I'd like to see it run right from western Mississauga (or even Brampton), ideally re-routed through Mississauga City Centre, past multiple subway connections at Kipling, Dupont, Summerhill, and on through Leaside to Agincourt, Malvern, and potentially Seaton. A re-route through Scarborough Centre might also be in order. It would likely cost a couple billion to add an extra pair of tracks, build the stations, and re-route through MCC, but the route's utility would be immense.

There are several problems with line. The main problem is there is not much room in the corridor itself for extra tracks in Toronto. The second is that does not connect with Union, which is not only inconvenient but also creates extra capacity problems for Yonge, which is bad enough already. Remember, most people who use th GO trains now don't use the TTC at all. Another problem is the east part of your line will have MUCH lower ridership than the west part.

And I have mentioned before, a diversion to MCC would not only overlap with possible separate rapid transit line along Hurontario, but also along the 403/Eglinton/Finch corridor.

Of course it's at capacity during rush hour. No route in the world is at capacity for the whole day. Obviously this route isn't going to take all Mississauga residents off the BD, but it will take some of them, freeing up space for ridership growth on BD.

Again you're just shifting riders from the Bloor line to the Yonge line, how does that help? Which line has most capacity problems, Yonge or Bloor?

I question whether or not such line will even affect ridership on Bloor in the first place, considering most people who use the subway in Mississauga live east of Hurontario. So basically you do nothing for Bloor and just create extra problems for the Yonge Line.

 

[spmarshall]

And I have mentioned before, a diversion to MCC would not only overlap with possible separate rapid transit line along Hurontario, but also along the 403/Eglinton/Finch corridor.

My plan that I posted as a response to Socialwoe's shifting, unrealistic plans, fixes this. In that, there is no Mississauga busway. A regional rail corridor and an Eglinton LRT continuing to MCC from Toronto would provide links to take people where they want to go.

Though I agree, the CP North Toronto should not take priority over the lines into Union, but would make a nice crosstown alternate to going though Union.

 

[unimaginative2]

I completely agree with spmarshall. I certainly don't think the North Toronto line should replace the Union Station route. I just think that it would make a great alternative.

Again you're just shifting riders from the Bloor line to the Yonge line, how does that help? Which line has most capacity problems, Yonge or Bloor?

No, you're shifting many of them from Bloor to Spadina, rather than Yonge. Spadina is a route which has excess capacity even in peak periods.

 

[doady]

Instead of a diversion of the Milton line to MCC, an ALRT line should be built along the 403/Finch corridor and interlined with Stouffeville and an extendede Scarborough RT to connect the following nodes: Midtown Oakville, MCC, Markham Centre NYCC, SCC and Downtown Pickering. This would interline/connect with a 407 ALRT line (via a tunnel under York University), and also a Etobicoke/27 ALRT line.

The Stouffeville line would have to converted to ALRT also and interlined with the Scaborough RT. The Stouffeville/Scarborough ALRT would have to be given separate tracks all the way from Scarborough GO to Union to separate form the Lakeshore line, which would remain as traditional commuter rail service.

The Milton line would also be ALRT, though the limited traditional commuter rail service would still exist and be extended to Cambridge. The Milton ALRT might mean the Weston-Don Mills subway (DRL) would have to routed along Parkside Dr instead or Georgetown corridor.

These new ALRT lines would use longer (Mark II?) trains and more frequent service than the Scarborough RT sees today, and would also be fully automated.

As for new subway lines, with few exceptions they should be focused on busy corridors and leave the job of connecting nodes to the commuter/regional rail system.

Click thumbnail for full-size map (2.65MB)

 

[spmarshall]

Very impressive map! Did you do it?

Somewhat different than I'd do, but it seems to work. A few minor things I'd do , like add an Agincourt stop to the north-eastern regional line to connect with everything else (plus drop the St. Michael's name from St. Clair West - too many things are named for that particular saint in different areas - thank you Bishop Michael Power!).

Otherwise, I need a good look, but the fundamentals are sound, unlike say Socialwoe's.

 

[unimaginative2]

Great map! I think the greatest loss in Toronto transit history was the GO-ALRT project. It would have completely transformed transit throughout the GTA, connecting all the important destinations, from Scarborough Centre through North York Centre, the airport, and Mississauga Centre to Oakville.

There are a couple very minor nitpicks which I could mention. You don't really need to divert the Weston subway route over to an underground alignment along Weston Road. The rail corridor is really no further from the road than the BD line is from Bloor. Another issue is that Roncesvalles is probably a better route than Parkside for the DRL to turn north. Not only is it a busier street, but it also goes to Dundas West station which is a fairly major junction point. It also allows the line to rejoin the rail corridor sooner, which reduces costs.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

What an incredibly legible map!

I guess the only major flaw is that the Danforth line should go to STC...overall, the RT is useless (even with "upgrades") and it certainly does not warrant being extended to Malvern or beyond, especially when your Sheppard line also goes there (and the jog up to "Bakersfield" and the terminus at Belfield are also not my cup of tea). This city's general preoccupation with Malvern has always befuddled me. There just aren't that many people in Malvern and most of the ones there aren't captive riders - they'd take the Midtown GO line in large numbers, and buses can handle the rest.

Other than that, it's a pretty good plan...I certainly wouldn't be able to find 16 pages of additional flaws :lol

I think that a lot of those ALRT lines would be great as long as they're fast and frequent enough. Fare integration would mean some routes changes that would help some people, but for travelling from random suburban locale to random suburban locale, ALRT has a heck of a lot of potential. Our suburbs must be nodally dense enough for multiple alignments to be viable.

 

[Ed007Toronto]

Great map doady. My only issue is with the portlands. That area could easily have 100,000 people in the next 20 years.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

^ What would you do in the Portlands? AFAIK, Cherry will get a streetcar that could run along Commissioners/Unwin/both. I really don't see 100,000 people living in the Portlands (south of Lakeshore) within 20 years since so much of the land will be parks, power plants, cement factories, etc., but surely a streetcar line will be enough...what it will connect to in the north is a mystery, though. Maybe by the time lots of people are living down there, some sort of rapid transit will exist across downtown.

edit - Oh, and get that damn streetcar off Finch! I didn't even notice the streetcar lines at first. Does that mean that the Yonge subway north of Finch will be a tunneled streetcar? If there's any 2km in the entire that would be most suitable for a subway extension, it's Yonge to Steeles...anything other than a subway just isn't good enough there.

And the Don Mills line absolutely needs to go up to Finch/hydro corridor to relieve Yonge - it'll divert tons of 39 and 53 traffic, serve Seneca College, and connect with Viva (Viva Green is sad right now but won't be forever). It could use a few less stops, too, or people will stick to the Yonge line.

 

[EnviroTO]

I like most of the ideas on that map. The map looks great. I too would like there to be a stop on the portlands since that area and its potential is huge. I would do something different in the Finch/Sheppard corridor as well... a subway on Sheppard, an LRT on Finch, and Regional rail in the hydro corridor seems a bit extreme. I would probably remove the hydro corridor mode just because the Finch LRT makes a better connection to Rexdale and the Sheppard Line meets it in the hydro corridor anyways. I really like the LRT routes, the downtown plan, and the Scarborough plan is unique to anything I have seen proposed but works as well.

Edit: I agree with scarb... i would make sense to extend the Yonge line to he Langstaff Gateway with the LRT north of that point.

 

[spmarshall]

Okay, a few nit-picks:

- I agree, the B-D line should go to Scarborough Centre, rather than a mode change at Kennedy.

- IMO, The DRL East should have a stop at Cosburn over Mortimer/O'Connor. Cosburn is the busiest of the east-west routes through there, and the density is higher generally along Cosburn than the others. There's almost nothing at O'Connor and Pape.

- Some of the station names: Cherry Hill should simply be Cawthra; St. Clair West should keep its name rather than the confusing St. Michael's as I said, things like that. But station names are a minor deal. I do like how you rename Downsview to Allen-Sheppard, which in reality is nowhere near Downsview itself (except the former AFB).

And there's no MCC-Union direct link, which I think is fairly important. There's a Bramalea diversion, so a Hurontario-MCC diversion is viable. Just have fewer stops than the LRT.

But like I said, the fundamentals are sound. The overall plan seems to work fairly well.

 

[socialwoe]

That makes no sense...speed is always crucial or no one except for the dirt poor (and Malvern is not at all a particularly poor area, FYI) will take it.

1-2 km spacing is a wallop faster than BD.

In your future world, a Midtown GO line would have dozens of stops, only run during rush hour, and still require a separate fare...no wonder you think it won't be useful.

Wrong, wrong and wrong! Not GO, assimilated TTC line, not the length and breadth of the corridor, only the western and eastern extremes. Ran all-day cause who likes to plan their lives around precarious route schedules? At 10 p.m. one could ride, and that my friend is reliabilty! And again one TTC, one fare.

The only railtracks anywhere near the Pickering airport are the ones that would be removed for the runways.

Tracks can be diverted or buried or people-mover ran out to the station site.

Again, read the previous post and you'll see that I said that one or two extra tracks would needed. Alternatively, CP could shift some or all of its traffic up to CN's York Sub.

The corridor's too narrow to allot enough room for more railtracks. York Sub's the same problem. Why you think I laughed off the Weston DRL idea earlier in the thread?

Obviously this route isn't going to take all Mississauga residents off the BD, but it will take some of them, freeing up space for ridership growth on BD.

I fail to see the long-term purpose of that unless BD is never extended into the 905. If it is, it'll run to MCC hence this, as I suspected, is only for the AM Rush Hour crowd who'd still be 20 mins away from their CBD offices if you divert them to Summerhill.

and I might shift around some of the west-of-Yonge stops.

What's wrong with there? I thought the spacing was good.

Fare integration would clearly be necessary if such a route were ever implemented.

Not at the rate inflation and cost of living's going lol!

Remember, most people who use th GO trains now don't use the TTC at all. Another problem is the east part of your line will have MUCH lower ridership than the west part.

Hmm, good logic here. I suppose that means crosstown travel without necessarily needing the core is viable as well. Meaning I was spot on about the Eglinton Line. You're right about the eastern half as well, the only couterpoint being it'd absolve the need for Sheppard east of STC or a Don Mills subway since Thorncliffe Park, Flemingdon Park, Don Mills Centre and Wynford Heights would be in direct range.

Again you're just shifting riders from the Bloor line to the Yonge line, how does that help? Which line has most capacity problems, Yonge or Bloor?

Definitely YUS and it'll only increase as it expends into the 905.

My plan that I posted as a response to Socialwoe's shifting, unrealistic plans...Otherwise, I need a good look, but the fundamentals are sound, unlike say Socialwoe's.

Gosh, would it kill you to not mention me in a disparaging way when complimtenting others!?! Especially when the praise you're bestowing is rightfully mine! Yeah, I find it amusing I get harassed for my plans when Doady...

a. Kept the friggin' Sheppard West line on Sheppard
b. Ran a full-length Eglinton Line (RH's not there but oh well!)
c. Had a Queen Line
d. Ran YUS to Langstaff
e. Had a Hurontario subway (I suggested it too)
f. Kept Sheppard East on Sheppard even to Malvern
g. Ditto on BD East

Oh, and get that damn streetcar off Finch! I didn't even notice the streetcar lines at first. Does that mean that the Yonge subway north of Finch will be a tunneled streetcar? If there's any 2km in the entire that would be most suitable for a subway extension, it's Yonge to Steeles...anything other than a subway just isn't good enough there.

Yeah I guess a streetcar along Finch would totally screw with your Jane-Finch jog, but oh well. And how can a subway become a streetcar tunnel? Paging Dr. Bonkers! I think what Doady meant was that's where the fare zone changes, though Cummer/Drewry walk-ins may not like that much.

The DRL East should have a stop at Cosburn over Mortimer/O'Connor. Cosburn is the busiest of the east-west routes through there, and the density is higher generally along Cosburn than the others. There's almost nothing at O'Connor and Pape.

Less is more, eh? Remember though Cosburn and Oconnor are only three blocks apart. It's not inconceivable that a single station could with north and south exits could serve both streets effectively. Plus Mortimer would be close enough to Centennial College and the Pape Village to be a worthwhile stop.

But station names are a minor deal. I do like how you rename Downsview to Allen-Sheppard, which in reality is nowhere near Downsview itself (except the former AFB).

Yeah some station names are blunders. Most of all Downsview. Think it's too late to change the name to Sheppard West so that the new Sheppard West gets named Chesswood instead? It sorta ruins the fluidity of Spadina stns when all of a sudden we shift from "-- West" to arbitrary community name.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

Tracks can be diverted or buried or people-mover ran out to the station site.

A rail tunnel several miles long to serve an airport that doesn't exist...brilliant!

1-2 km spacing is a wallop faster than BD.

1km spacing on a GO line??? :eek

And again one TTC, one fare.

This is the first time in this thread that you've acknowledge that 1. GO exists, and 2. it might one day be integrated (both the fare and the network) with the TTC.

Why you think I laughed off the Weston DRL idea earlier in the thread?

The west branch of the DRL does not need to follow the rail line. Someone from the west end could probably suggest better routes, but there's not very many of them that post here (and it would take a local to suggest creative alternatives based on travel patterns...looking at a map just doesn't work).

I fail to see the long-term purpose of that unless BD is never extended into the 905. If it is, it'll run to MCC hence this, as I suspected, is only for the AM Rush Hour crowd who'd still be 20 mins away from their CBD offices if you divert them to Summerhill.

Bloor to MCC is not an automatic...there's no serious proposals to do so. It'd be, what, an hour long trip on the subway? Yeah, that'll be popular. Anyway, B/D definitely can't handle many more riders during rush hour - you can still almost always get on at any car at Castle Frank or Christie but it's not at all comfortable, and there's no significant room for growth.

Meaning I was spot on about the Eglinton Line.

You talk like you came up with the idea...they started building it!

Another problem is the east part of your line will have MUCH lower ridership than the west part.

That's debatable...stations in the east are surprisingly well-located.

a. Kept the friggin' Sheppard West line on Sheppard

That's a terrible idea...there's nothing on Sheppard west of Jane (and both of your Shepard West lines go almost to but don't reach the airport, which makes no sense).

b. Ran a full-length Eglinton Line (RH's not there but oh well!)

Everybody's fantasy map includes an Eglinton line...your Renforth and Rouge Hill portions make you Eglinton line ridiculous, though.

c. Had a Queen Line

Again, any fantasy map would have one, but yours also has silly bits at the end.

d. Ran YUS to Langstaff

So what? Even the TTC would do that...no one has criticized your plan to do it, too (although you could get away with a stop or two less).

e. Had a Hurontario subway (I suggested it too)

You seem to be rewriting history. Anyway, a Hurontario line has potential...the road is wide enough in places that cut & cover operations would be very easy.

f. Kept Sheppard East on Sheppard even to Malvern

Also a bad idea.

g. Ditto on BD East

Ditto.

Yeah I guess a streetcar along Finch would totally screw with your Jane-Finch jog, but oh well.

This is why we laugh at you.

I think what Doady meant was that's where the fare zone changes

I'll take back my "incredibly legible" compliment......why have a zone boundary within the 416 when the lines out to Malton and Vaughan have none? A fare boundary wouldn't require changing the colour of the line on the map - that implies it's a different line altogether.

Less is more, eh? Remember though Cosburn and Oconnor are only three blocks apart. It's not inconceivable that a single station could with north and south exits could serve both streets effectively. Plus Mortimer would be close enough to Centennial College and the Pape Village to be a worthwhile stop.

Sorry, spmarshall is completely right.

 

[spmarshall]

That's a terrible idea...there's nothing on Sheppard west of Jane (and both of your Shepard West lines go almost to but don't reach the airport, which makes no sense).

I agree as well. I stopped the Sheppard line at Allen-Sheppard for the same reason, and had the Finch West LRT instead (that would run from Humber College/Airport maybe to Finch Stn). Though I see why Doady put it in, as it would be part of a line heading into Etobicoke, so there's some sense there. The NW end is a bit overkill. I am curious as to how the ALRT routes would run into York U with that wye to feed into it.

Questions for Doady:
- Would the Shoppers World-Main St N streetcar be part of the Hurontario Line? I would make the Hurontario line one route Port Credit to DT Brampton, and stop it there - buses can do the rest of the work, I think.

If a Queen Street Brampton line was built, I would make the west end be at least at McLaughlin, not McMurchy, where there would be more room for development and a terminal (though the old Dixie Cup plant would be a neat opportunity there!)

Fantasy maps are fun! I'm really enjoying this thread.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

"The NW end is a bit overkill."

The way York U, Jane & Finch, Weston & Finch (if the Emery project gets built), Rexdale, Humber College, Woodbine, and the airport all line up in a row so auspiciously is very tempting for fantasy map purposes...other options I've seen just aren't as aesthetically pleasing.

Is the rail line that goes through Woodbridge and Bolton a candidate for GO?