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M II A II R II K
Guest
Yes, they could extend the B/D into the York region too. :hat
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spmarshall
Guest
I ended up taking a tour of Scarbourgh yesterday after leaving work early. I took the 506 to Main, then the 113 to Kennedy, then the 116 to Malvern, the 131 to STC, the 16 to Lawrence Ave, then the 54 to Eglinton. I then took the 61 to the bagel shop on Avenue Road and then went home.
Edit: (I'm also aiming to ride every surface route. 16, 113, 116, 131 are new to me! I tried to get the 99 Arrow Road after looking at furniture on Sunday, but the dick driving that route refused to stop for me, saw me and sped up.)
Observations:
- For the first time in a long time, I saw the ramp used on a Orion VII for a disabled rider, on the 54 at Don Mills. I have been on the 54 many times before through Don Mills and Scarborough, but it really slows to a crawl on Eglinton, as all the buses play leapfrog. Eglinton needs rationalization badly.
- I then saw the lift deployed for a passenger on the 61. The lift on the high-floor bus wasn't much slower than the ramp on the low-floor bus. The Orion V high-floors with lifts have a much greater capacity than the low-floors, though I understand that those with carts and walkers or strollers are better off with a low-floor. (Just build a low-floor that works, and/or boost the service to match the lousy capacity)
- McCowan is pretty low density. I thought so, but now I see it for myself. However, a station at McCowan and Lawrence makes so much more sense than at Brimley, if only because there is a better chance of densification, and at least the hospital is a trip generator. Though the Hydro ROW at Brimley would be great for a bus terminal and parking lot, but we're not building a GO station.
- Malvern is underserved. I knew that, but it's the first time I've been up there by bus. The 131 is a damned busy route, I'd hate to see it become low-floor. It does not need a subway though. I think an express bus to STC looping around the Malvern TC (where the highest density is as well) would intercept the local routes and provide a much better service for now.
I'm in the middle of my comprehensive transit plan. Stay tuned.
Edit: (I'm also aiming to ride every surface route. 16, 113, 116, 131 are new to me! I tried to get the 99 Arrow Road after looking at furniture on Sunday, but the dick driving that route refused to stop for me, saw me and sped up.)
Observations:
- For the first time in a long time, I saw the ramp used on a Orion VII for a disabled rider, on the 54 at Don Mills. I have been on the 54 many times before through Don Mills and Scarborough, but it really slows to a crawl on Eglinton, as all the buses play leapfrog. Eglinton needs rationalization badly.
- I then saw the lift deployed for a passenger on the 61. The lift on the high-floor bus wasn't much slower than the ramp on the low-floor bus. The Orion V high-floors with lifts have a much greater capacity than the low-floors, though I understand that those with carts and walkers or strollers are better off with a low-floor. (Just build a low-floor that works, and/or boost the service to match the lousy capacity)
- McCowan is pretty low density. I thought so, but now I see it for myself. However, a station at McCowan and Lawrence makes so much more sense than at Brimley, if only because there is a better chance of densification, and at least the hospital is a trip generator. Though the Hydro ROW at Brimley would be great for a bus terminal and parking lot, but we're not building a GO station.
- Malvern is underserved. I knew that, but it's the first time I've been up there by bus. The 131 is a damned busy route, I'd hate to see it become low-floor. It does not need a subway though. I think an express bus to STC looping around the Malvern TC (where the highest density is as well) would intercept the local routes and provide a much better service for now.
I'm in the middle of my comprehensive transit plan. Stay tuned.
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scarberiankhatru
Guest
I've always found that the 54 is worse in the morning, when it used to take me up to 30 minutes to go from Lawrence East to Vic Park...it was unbearable. On Eglinton the leapfrogging really depends on how full your bus is and how many other buses you're fighting with. The 54's route is so long that the frequency is guaranteed to be screwed up.
The connection to the 54, not the hospital or anything else, is what matters at any Lawrence East stop, so in the final analysis it doesn't matter where it goes, especially since most users of an extension would be coming from STC or beyond. That said, a Brimley stop would be pretty useless for anything other than a ginormous parking lot...some people might walk over from the Midland towers, though. A Midland/CN stop would have the most potential for redevelopment and would have at least 10,000 people within walking distance of the station, but it's farther to go for the Lawrence bus and the TTC would never put a subway through that alignment (and maybe they shouldn't if the Stouffville line gets something more than 4 trains a day). I'm leaning towards a McCowan route that passes through the Brimley/Eglinton/Danforth triangle.
Malvern definitely needs better bus service, like some express options, a bus for Morningside Heighters that doesn't go through Centenary Hospital, etc. Frankly, it can't support a subway, and due to the Rouge Park, it may never be able to...the case for it is certainly not helped by the single family homes going in all over the place, especially across from the mall off McLevin.
The connection to the 54, not the hospital or anything else, is what matters at any Lawrence East stop, so in the final analysis it doesn't matter where it goes, especially since most users of an extension would be coming from STC or beyond. That said, a Brimley stop would be pretty useless for anything other than a ginormous parking lot...some people might walk over from the Midland towers, though. A Midland/CN stop would have the most potential for redevelopment and would have at least 10,000 people within walking distance of the station, but it's farther to go for the Lawrence bus and the TTC would never put a subway through that alignment (and maybe they shouldn't if the Stouffville line gets something more than 4 trains a day). I'm leaning towards a McCowan route that passes through the Brimley/Eglinton/Danforth triangle.
Malvern definitely needs better bus service, like some express options, a bus for Morningside Heighters that doesn't go through Centenary Hospital, etc. Frankly, it can't support a subway, and due to the Rouge Park, it may never be able to...the case for it is certainly not helped by the single family homes going in all over the place, especially across from the mall off McLevin.
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Darkstar416
Guest
I think the 54 should run Express to Leslie. It's just too busy a route to over-serve and be slowed-down on Eglinton with the rest of them.
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scarberiankhatru
Guest
Who, you ask? Why, the cast of Hinterland Who's Who, that's who.
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cdl42
Guest
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scarberiankhatru
Guest
I wish socialwoe would keep posting...
We miss you!
We miss you!
S
spmarshall
Guest
Here's my own transit plan - I encompass more than subways, and include buses, light rail, regional rail as well.
PHASE I: First Steps - Within 3 years
I start with subways that have EA approval or could get started quickly. This includes the Scarborough extension to the B-D subway.
All are in various phases of construction:
1. Spadina line to York University Only. EA approved, I grudgenly accept that this one has the momentum. However, the Sorbara tack-on is deferred. Stops at Chesswood-GO, Keele-Finch and York University.
2. Sheppard to Victoria Park. We're stuck with the Sheppard Stub-Way, and this might be throwing good money after bad (though I don't quite believe this), but it gets useful once it gets to Victoria Park. Stops at Consumers.
3. B-D extension to Scarborough Centre, via Eglinton and McCowan. Stops at Lawrence East.
In the meantime, to address slow surface transit and crowding, 25 "Rocket" express routes are established. Four are existing routes (190, 191, 192, 196), several more replace "E" branches of existing routes, and some are new. The 201 Malvern Rocket is new. Rocket routes run a minimum of 18 hours a day, 7-10 minutes peak period, 8-15 minutes base service on most routes and stop only at major intersections in most cases. Fares are pre-boarding only, and are all POP, similar to Viva. Several routes enter Markham (to Highway 7) and Peel Region to make better connections.
As well, the St. Clair ROW is built, to Scarlett Road, and the Waterfront LRT is built. Spadina is also fixed, with several less stops and real signal priority.
GO Train service is expanded on weekdays on the Milton (to Erindale), Georgetown (to Mount Pleasant) and Stouffville (to Mount Joy) to run hourly all day until 10PM. Fares are coordinated with the TTC, requiring only a fare top-up to GO, and free transfer to TTC from GO.
The list of Rocket Routes:
Phase 1 Map (to scale!):
PHASE II (within 6 to 9 years):
Subway projects in Phase 1 are completed.
Phase 2 Subway:
Downtown Relief Line is started, between Spadina South and Pape Stations. Stops at Union, St. Lawrence, Parliament, DeGrassi, Riverdale.
Yonge Subway to Steeles.
Eglinton LRT tunnel is started between Mount Dennis and Don Mills Road. Stops at Keele, Caledonia, Dufferin, Eglinton West, Forest Hill, Chaplin, Avenue Road, Eglinton-Yonge, Mount Pleasant, Sunnybrook (Bayview), Laird.
Regional Rail is split from GO Commuter Rail.
Commuter Rail is introduced:
- Lakeshore Line between new Oshawa Centre station (via old Oshawa Railway allignment) and Hamilton GO Centre. New station at Riverdale to connect to DRL. Trains run every 15-20 minutes daily (30 minutes late evenings from 10PM to 1:30 AM) using Diesel Multiple Unit trains. Rush hour bilevel trains still run making limited stops.
- Georgetown Line to Mount Pleasant. New stops at Parkdale, Mount Dennis, Woodbine. Trains run every 20 minutes (30 minutes late evenings) daily. Connections to new people mover at Woodbine for Pearson Airport with cross platform connection. Rush hour commuter trains still run from Georgetown running express from Malton.
- Stouffville Line to Mount Joy. New stops at Lawrence, Ellesmere to replace abandoned SRT stops. Trains run every 20 minutes (30 minutes late evenings) daily. Rush hour commuter trains still run from Stouffville running express from Milliken. Kennedy Rocket route is removed.
Regional rail services have full fare integration with local transit as GTA fare-by-distance scheme introduced with fare card system.
Tunnel for MCC regional rail service is underway.
Limited commuter weekday off-peak commuter service to Newmarket, rush hours to Barrie.
New GO Bolton rush hour commuter service - stops at Emery, Pine Valley (Steeles), Woodbridge, Highway 27, Nashville.
Phase III: Within 10-13 years
DRL Phase 2 underway as Phase 1 opens: Spadina South to Dundas West, stops at Fort York, Liberty Village, Parkdale, Brockton.
Sheppard Subway Phase 2 underway: Sheppard-Yonge to Downsview (stopping at Earl Bales), Victoria Park to Agincourt (via Warden North, Birchmount).
Yonge Line open to Steeles, extension to Thornhill and Langstaff Stations underway.
Queen streetcar tunnel underway, initially from east of Parliament to Trinity-Bellwoods Park.
Eglinton LRT opened, using Pre-Metro subway, from Kingston Road to Airport Corporate Centre/Pearson Airport. Surface sections in central ROW or in exclusive ROW via disused Richview Expressway lands in Etobicoke.
Queensway, Jane, Kingston and Finch West LRTs opened.
Regional rail to MCC - trains run every 15-20 minutes daily. Second phase follows former Mississauga Busway allignment back to Milton line and beyond. Limited rush, midday and evening service maintained on Milton Line to Meadowvale Station (rush hours only to Lisgar and Milton). New stops at Jane Street and Bloor for regional trains only.
Regional rail now on Bradford Line to Maple Station. Trains run every 20-30 minutes all day, every day. Stations added at Caledonia, Lawrence, Downsview (Wilson) and Concord (Highway 7). Limited weekday off-peak service to Newmarket, rush hours to Barrie.
Phase IV (within 14-18 years)
Sheppard Subway and Danforth Subway extensions to Sheppard-McCowan.
DRL Phase 3 underway: Pape to Eglinton East, stops at Cosburn, Thorncliffe Park, Flemingdon Park (Overlea and Don Mills).
Queen streetcar subway extensions underway to Roncesvalles and DeGrassi.
Regional Rail: Mississauga DMU Line completed to Trafalgar Station in Oakville, with stops at Mavis, Erindale, Erin Mills, Winston Churchill, 9th Line.
New Regional Rail to Seaton (Pickering North). Stops at Malvern, Markham Road, McCowan (with subway connection), Agincourt and then via Stouffville line to Union. Additional weekday service via Belleville/North Toronto Sub stopping at Ellesmere, Lawrence, Eglinton/Leslie, Leaside, Summerhill, Dupont, Dufferin, then to MCC.
Lakeshore Line electrified in conjunction with VIA FAST improvements.
Loop line provides weekday service (every 30 minutes) via CN York Sub between Brampton and Pickering stations. To be extended via OBRY to Mississauga in near future.
Bolton line gets all-day commuter service to Woodbridge.
Phase V (20 years and beyond)
DRL Phase 3 finished, Phase 4 to Mount Dennis underway, stopping at West Toronto, St. Clair, Rogers Road. Phase 5 from Eglinton East to Fairview Mall, stopping at Don Mills, York Mills, Graydon Hall.
Spadina line finally extended to Vaughan.
Bloor line extended to Dixie, stopping at East Mall and Sherway GO.
Finally, my regional map.
Summary:
Weekday Service levels
Oshawa-Hamilton: Every 10-20 minutes
Trafalgar-Union: Every 15-20 minutes
Brampton-Union: Every 15-20 minutes
Maple/Mount Joy to Union: Every 20-30 minutes
Woodbridge/Seaton to Union: Every 30 minutes
Loop Line: Every 30 minutes (20 in peak) weekdays only
North Toronto (MCC-Seaton): Every 20-30 minutes, less weekend service.
Barrie: Limited service (every hour weekdays, less weekends)
Milton Line: Every 30-60 minutes
Georgetown, Snelgrove, Richmond Hill, Stouffville, Bolton, Bowmanville Commuter Line: Rush hours only
Combined services:
MCC-Union: every 7.5-10 minutes
Weston-Union: every 10 minutes
Agincourt-Union: every 10 minutes
PHASE I: First Steps - Within 3 years
I start with subways that have EA approval or could get started quickly. This includes the Scarborough extension to the B-D subway.
All are in various phases of construction:
1. Spadina line to York University Only. EA approved, I grudgenly accept that this one has the momentum. However, the Sorbara tack-on is deferred. Stops at Chesswood-GO, Keele-Finch and York University.
2. Sheppard to Victoria Park. We're stuck with the Sheppard Stub-Way, and this might be throwing good money after bad (though I don't quite believe this), but it gets useful once it gets to Victoria Park. Stops at Consumers.
3. B-D extension to Scarborough Centre, via Eglinton and McCowan. Stops at Lawrence East.
In the meantime, to address slow surface transit and crowding, 25 "Rocket" express routes are established. Four are existing routes (190, 191, 192, 196), several more replace "E" branches of existing routes, and some are new. The 201 Malvern Rocket is new. Rocket routes run a minimum of 18 hours a day, 7-10 minutes peak period, 8-15 minutes base service on most routes and stop only at major intersections in most cases. Fares are pre-boarding only, and are all POP, similar to Viva. Several routes enter Markham (to Highway 7) and Peel Region to make better connections.
As well, the St. Clair ROW is built, to Scarlett Road, and the Waterfront LRT is built. Spadina is also fixed, with several less stops and real signal priority.
GO Train service is expanded on weekdays on the Milton (to Erindale), Georgetown (to Mount Pleasant) and Stouffville (to Mount Joy) to run hourly all day until 10PM. Fares are coordinated with the TTC, requiring only a fare top-up to GO, and free transfer to TTC from GO.
The list of Rocket Routes:
Phase 1 Map (to scale!):
PHASE II (within 6 to 9 years):
Subway projects in Phase 1 are completed.
Phase 2 Subway:
Downtown Relief Line is started, between Spadina South and Pape Stations. Stops at Union, St. Lawrence, Parliament, DeGrassi, Riverdale.
Yonge Subway to Steeles.
Eglinton LRT tunnel is started between Mount Dennis and Don Mills Road. Stops at Keele, Caledonia, Dufferin, Eglinton West, Forest Hill, Chaplin, Avenue Road, Eglinton-Yonge, Mount Pleasant, Sunnybrook (Bayview), Laird.
Regional Rail is split from GO Commuter Rail.
Commuter Rail is introduced:
- Lakeshore Line between new Oshawa Centre station (via old Oshawa Railway allignment) and Hamilton GO Centre. New station at Riverdale to connect to DRL. Trains run every 15-20 minutes daily (30 minutes late evenings from 10PM to 1:30 AM) using Diesel Multiple Unit trains. Rush hour bilevel trains still run making limited stops.
- Georgetown Line to Mount Pleasant. New stops at Parkdale, Mount Dennis, Woodbine. Trains run every 20 minutes (30 minutes late evenings) daily. Connections to new people mover at Woodbine for Pearson Airport with cross platform connection. Rush hour commuter trains still run from Georgetown running express from Malton.
- Stouffville Line to Mount Joy. New stops at Lawrence, Ellesmere to replace abandoned SRT stops. Trains run every 20 minutes (30 minutes late evenings) daily. Rush hour commuter trains still run from Stouffville running express from Milliken. Kennedy Rocket route is removed.
Regional rail services have full fare integration with local transit as GTA fare-by-distance scheme introduced with fare card system.
Tunnel for MCC regional rail service is underway.
Limited commuter weekday off-peak commuter service to Newmarket, rush hours to Barrie.
New GO Bolton rush hour commuter service - stops at Emery, Pine Valley (Steeles), Woodbridge, Highway 27, Nashville.
Phase III: Within 10-13 years
DRL Phase 2 underway as Phase 1 opens: Spadina South to Dundas West, stops at Fort York, Liberty Village, Parkdale, Brockton.
Sheppard Subway Phase 2 underway: Sheppard-Yonge to Downsview (stopping at Earl Bales), Victoria Park to Agincourt (via Warden North, Birchmount).
Yonge Line open to Steeles, extension to Thornhill and Langstaff Stations underway.
Queen streetcar tunnel underway, initially from east of Parliament to Trinity-Bellwoods Park.
Eglinton LRT opened, using Pre-Metro subway, from Kingston Road to Airport Corporate Centre/Pearson Airport. Surface sections in central ROW or in exclusive ROW via disused Richview Expressway lands in Etobicoke.
Queensway, Jane, Kingston and Finch West LRTs opened.
Regional rail to MCC - trains run every 15-20 minutes daily. Second phase follows former Mississauga Busway allignment back to Milton line and beyond. Limited rush, midday and evening service maintained on Milton Line to Meadowvale Station (rush hours only to Lisgar and Milton). New stops at Jane Street and Bloor for regional trains only.
Regional rail now on Bradford Line to Maple Station. Trains run every 20-30 minutes all day, every day. Stations added at Caledonia, Lawrence, Downsview (Wilson) and Concord (Highway 7). Limited weekday off-peak service to Newmarket, rush hours to Barrie.
Phase IV (within 14-18 years)
Sheppard Subway and Danforth Subway extensions to Sheppard-McCowan.
DRL Phase 3 underway: Pape to Eglinton East, stops at Cosburn, Thorncliffe Park, Flemingdon Park (Overlea and Don Mills).
Queen streetcar subway extensions underway to Roncesvalles and DeGrassi.
Regional Rail: Mississauga DMU Line completed to Trafalgar Station in Oakville, with stops at Mavis, Erindale, Erin Mills, Winston Churchill, 9th Line.
New Regional Rail to Seaton (Pickering North). Stops at Malvern, Markham Road, McCowan (with subway connection), Agincourt and then via Stouffville line to Union. Additional weekday service via Belleville/North Toronto Sub stopping at Ellesmere, Lawrence, Eglinton/Leslie, Leaside, Summerhill, Dupont, Dufferin, then to MCC.
Lakeshore Line electrified in conjunction with VIA FAST improvements.
Loop line provides weekday service (every 30 minutes) via CN York Sub between Brampton and Pickering stations. To be extended via OBRY to Mississauga in near future.
Bolton line gets all-day commuter service to Woodbridge.
Phase V (20 years and beyond)
DRL Phase 3 finished, Phase 4 to Mount Dennis underway, stopping at West Toronto, St. Clair, Rogers Road. Phase 5 from Eglinton East to Fairview Mall, stopping at Don Mills, York Mills, Graydon Hall.
Spadina line finally extended to Vaughan.
Bloor line extended to Dixie, stopping at East Mall and Sherway GO.
Finally, my regional map.
Summary:
Weekday Service levels
Oshawa-Hamilton: Every 10-20 minutes
Trafalgar-Union: Every 15-20 minutes
Brampton-Union: Every 15-20 minutes
Maple/Mount Joy to Union: Every 20-30 minutes
Woodbridge/Seaton to Union: Every 30 minutes
Loop Line: Every 30 minutes (20 in peak) weekdays only
North Toronto (MCC-Seaton): Every 20-30 minutes, less weekend service.
Barrie: Limited service (every hour weekdays, less weekends)
Milton Line: Every 30-60 minutes
Georgetown, Snelgrove, Richmond Hill, Stouffville, Bolton, Bowmanville Commuter Line: Rush hours only
Combined services:
MCC-Union: every 7.5-10 minutes
Weston-Union: every 10 minutes
Agincourt-Union: every 10 minutes
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dashingdan
Guest
Wow that's a really detailed plan. If I was going to tear it apart, I wouldn't know where to start. Good job!
S
socialwoe
Guest
I'm Back!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Gee, it must've sucked not having someone to mock and jeer around for two and a half weeks.
For Christ sake stop twisting up my ideologies! Use Mapart or Google Maps to see for yourself. I'm talking an extension along the preexisting CN tracks to Mornsingside/Old Finch then adjacently following Old Finch through a residential community NOT a park, all the way to Morningview Tr. From there it's just a few acres of shrub to Zoo property, who in their right mind wouldn't grant this land use when it's critical to the overall development of NE Scarborough, boost Zoo patronage, increase park usage (yes for all your criticism I'm the only one whose proposing a way to integrate Rouge Park with Torontonians, hence fostering pride in saving the park from bulldozing) and open the door for regional expansion (to Pickering Town Centre, Markham-Stoufville Hosp. or Pickering Airport). And since when does Rouge Park hinder an extension to Markham Rd? Haven't I impressed on you the nodes of Centennial College and Milner Business Ct along with numerous malls, high rise apts, the 401 and Burrows Hall Community Centre which would benefit greatly from a Markham Rd subway or SRT?
The only thing oozing and infected is your thought process :lol ! Where's the $ going to come from to build this dream subway of your's? I'd take the current SRT anyday over a two stop 'stubway' that destroys any hopes of an Eglinton East or Malvern subway in the long term.
Again with the benefits of RT over subway. The cheaper it is to build, the more stations can be added in. I never said STC was insignificant either, I said why dead-end two rapid transit heavy rail subway lines in this one spot when two-thirds of Scarborough would still be left with zippo, zang, zilch! Let it be just another stop on the line a la NYC NOT a end-route. If STC is a 'downtown' why must it have only one station? Brimley, STC, McCowan, Bellamy North, Markham North, Progress, Milner and Sheppard East is the natural and plausible solution to NE Scarborough transit problems and gets mass transit ever so closer to your precious already-served-by-commuter-trains-and-VIVA-but-what-the-heck Markville.
Stupid, not streetcars, elevated ICTS trains! I hate it when people refer to the lousy Spadina, Harbourfront and St Clair routes as "rapid transit" which is erroneously deceptive and misleading. If we don't start somewhere, we'll never have enough public support to heckle politicians for massive change i.e. citywide RT network within years NOT decades of waiting for 6kms of 'stubways' through low density sprawl.
I honestly don't want Brimley/Eglinton stop if it means further diminishing the importance of the Eglinton Line. If only there was some way of making interlining work for Kennedy, one branch could follow the path of SRT while the other heads for West Hill/UTSC, but then again we are dealing with fruitfly intellectuals here as you say.
Not buses, the routes themselves. Nowhere else in Toronto has the number of TTC routes Malvern does and for that fact alone the elimination of a prolengthened journey to STC makes a RT extension all the more necessitious.
Who cares about Yonge St, this is about linking one end of the city to the next.
Wow, a back-handed compliment. Given you wanted bizarro lines out to dustpans on Weston Rd, Finch W&E, McCowan and Don Mills (N of Lawrence it'd be futile) his idea doesn't seem so strange. An Elgin Mills (Bernard) RT is possible given GO were willing to give up its rails north of Langstaff-Richmond Hill Centre. This links directly to the Yonge subway.
The only retrospective one here is you. My forward-thinking sees the viability of this extension even despite Scarberian's persistence that 75,000 people and growing ain't enough to support it. If by development you mean a maximum 500m track adjacent to Old Finch through dry shrub which is no more an ecological threat than the existing matrix of smog-inducing freight trains currently trevassing the park without so much as a sneeze from you well then by all means carry on the criticism.
Wow :eek ! So tell me now, how exactly did the Spadina/Harbourfront LRT, St Clair LRT, entire Spadina subway line, York U/Vaughan extension, proposed Eglinton West line, proposed Sherway/MCC line benefit the east? The RT is crumbling and the manufacturer's out of business. The 'stubway' has yet to even penetrate Scarborough. Yeah stand up job the east's getting especially when I'm being blasted for spotting the inequity and proposing something real for that region. Oh and the fact the east's relatively unspoilt means it'll be a haven for newcomers and those escaping the hustle-bustle of Mississauga in the future.
Good luck with that :rolleyes !
Your emoticon summed this up... someone's been smoking the weed alright.
Finally, another soul who knows the uselessness of a McCowan line, take note Scarberian.
If we can get the RT as far out as Markham-Sheppard, it's no stretch to run it a few metres north to meet with the CN tracks and run into Malvern.
Think: Willket Creek Subway Station. The best part about subway planning for me is not just subway routing but bus routing as well.
I do. Too many unnecessary GO lines and what the heck does he mean by pre-metro? If Eglinton can't be accomplished soley via subway please make it be monrail. I was watching this documentary on PBS the other day detailing the struggle ordinary transit fans had organizing and petitioning the city to extend their monorail system as a solution to the lack of subways in Seattle, Washington State. Surprisngly these ordinary non-skilled people were appointed to run the expansion, however sadly the longer the process of gathering funds became the more public interest waned until they voted against it. If only people here were that gung-ho.
Gee, it must've sucked not having someone to mock and jeer around for two and a half weeks.
For Christ sake stop twisting up my ideologies! Use Mapart or Google Maps to see for yourself. I'm talking an extension along the preexisting CN tracks to Mornsingside/Old Finch then adjacently following Old Finch through a residential community NOT a park, all the way to Morningview Tr. From there it's just a few acres of shrub to Zoo property, who in their right mind wouldn't grant this land use when it's critical to the overall development of NE Scarborough, boost Zoo patronage, increase park usage (yes for all your criticism I'm the only one whose proposing a way to integrate Rouge Park with Torontonians, hence fostering pride in saving the park from bulldozing) and open the door for regional expansion (to Pickering Town Centre, Markham-Stoufville Hosp. or Pickering Airport). And since when does Rouge Park hinder an extension to Markham Rd? Haven't I impressed on you the nodes of Centennial College and Milner Business Ct along with numerous malls, high rise apts, the 401 and Burrows Hall Community Centre which would benefit greatly from a Markham Rd subway or SRT?
The only thing oozing and infected is your thought process :lol ! Where's the $ going to come from to build this dream subway of your's? I'd take the current SRT anyday over a two stop 'stubway' that destroys any hopes of an Eglinton East or Malvern subway in the long term.
Again with the benefits of RT over subway. The cheaper it is to build, the more stations can be added in. I never said STC was insignificant either, I said why dead-end two rapid transit heavy rail subway lines in this one spot when two-thirds of Scarborough would still be left with zippo, zang, zilch! Let it be just another stop on the line a la NYC NOT a end-route. If STC is a 'downtown' why must it have only one station? Brimley, STC, McCowan, Bellamy North, Markham North, Progress, Milner and Sheppard East is the natural and plausible solution to NE Scarborough transit problems and gets mass transit ever so closer to your precious already-served-by-commuter-trains-and-VIVA-but-what-the-heck Markville.
Stupid, not streetcars, elevated ICTS trains! I hate it when people refer to the lousy Spadina, Harbourfront and St Clair routes as "rapid transit" which is erroneously deceptive and misleading. If we don't start somewhere, we'll never have enough public support to heckle politicians for massive change i.e. citywide RT network within years NOT decades of waiting for 6kms of 'stubways' through low density sprawl.
I honestly don't want Brimley/Eglinton stop if it means further diminishing the importance of the Eglinton Line. If only there was some way of making interlining work for Kennedy, one branch could follow the path of SRT while the other heads for West Hill/UTSC, but then again we are dealing with fruitfly intellectuals here as you say.
Not buses, the routes themselves. Nowhere else in Toronto has the number of TTC routes Malvern does and for that fact alone the elimination of a prolengthened journey to STC makes a RT extension all the more necessitious.
Who cares about Yonge St, this is about linking one end of the city to the next.
Wow, a back-handed compliment. Given you wanted bizarro lines out to dustpans on Weston Rd, Finch W&E, McCowan and Don Mills (N of Lawrence it'd be futile) his idea doesn't seem so strange. An Elgin Mills (Bernard) RT is possible given GO were willing to give up its rails north of Langstaff-Richmond Hill Centre. This links directly to the Yonge subway.
The only retrospective one here is you. My forward-thinking sees the viability of this extension even despite Scarberian's persistence that 75,000 people and growing ain't enough to support it. If by development you mean a maximum 500m track adjacent to Old Finch through dry shrub which is no more an ecological threat than the existing matrix of smog-inducing freight trains currently trevassing the park without so much as a sneeze from you well then by all means carry on the criticism.
Wow :eek ! So tell me now, how exactly did the Spadina/Harbourfront LRT, St Clair LRT, entire Spadina subway line, York U/Vaughan extension, proposed Eglinton West line, proposed Sherway/MCC line benefit the east? The RT is crumbling and the manufacturer's out of business. The 'stubway' has yet to even penetrate Scarborough. Yeah stand up job the east's getting especially when I'm being blasted for spotting the inequity and proposing something real for that region. Oh and the fact the east's relatively unspoilt means it'll be a haven for newcomers and those escaping the hustle-bustle of Mississauga in the future.
Good luck with that :rolleyes !
Your emoticon summed this up... someone's been smoking the weed alright.
Finally, another soul who knows the uselessness of a McCowan line, take note Scarberian.
If we can get the RT as far out as Markham-Sheppard, it's no stretch to run it a few metres north to meet with the CN tracks and run into Malvern.
Think: Willket Creek Subway Station. The best part about subway planning for me is not just subway routing but bus routing as well.
I do. Too many unnecessary GO lines and what the heck does he mean by pre-metro? If Eglinton can't be accomplished soley via subway please make it be monrail. I was watching this documentary on PBS the other day detailing the struggle ordinary transit fans had organizing and petitioning the city to extend their monorail system as a solution to the lack of subways in Seattle, Washington State. Surprisngly these ordinary non-skilled people were appointed to run the expansion, however sadly the longer the process of gathering funds became the more public interest waned until they voted against it. If only people here were that gung-ho.
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scarberiankhatru
Guest
Well, that post just made my day!
No, it sucked not having any worthless subway plans to ridicule...spmarshall's plan was quite sound.
And where's the tens of billion$ needed for your plan going to come from? Soberman (note: this is not Sambora, but a different guy) has ensured that the TTC will spend at least half a billion dollars on upgrading the RT while a subway extension might cost $1.2 billion...the difference is approximately what the city will spend on the Spadina extension. Kill the sinkhole extension and fund a certifiably useful extension instead = two birds, one stone?
Yeah, elevated stuff is sooooo much cheaper and quicker to build. Pretty much everyone in this city outside of this forum calls streetcar ROWs "rapid transit"...at least, politicans and the TTC do, and they're the ones that count the most. And since when is Don Mills & Sheppard "low density"? Low density compared to Kowloon? Bangladesh? What? I guess 12 storey highrises are the new bungalows.
You just don't get it, so I'll let you ponder the solution to this one alone for a while, grasshopper...
Yeah, linking random stuff together no matter how long or useless the lines are...we got that.
Then why did you say, on page 3, that the density at Don Mills & York Mills is immense? Remember, back when you proposed turning Sheppard down Don Mills to become a quasi-DRL?
You are mind-numbingly obtuse - that 75,000 figure was a maximum future estimate that covers quite a large area...you want to serve this population with 2 looping subway lines, while other areas in the city with many more people get nothing other than supposedly trivial feeder bus connections.
I thought you said streetcars weren't rapid transit? Anyway, Spadina (except for the 2km stretch to Downsview), the proposed Vaughan extension, the once-proposed Eglinton line, the proposed Sherway line, and the never-proposed MCC line should be excluded because they are outside the timeframe. How do never-proposed lines benefit anyone?
So the Rouge Park and greenbelt will be developed?
Moron - he was referring to McCowan & Lawrence, the Bendale area. McCowan up in Milliken is as dense as any other suburban neighbourhood in the GTA. If memory serves me correctly, you really do love to pick out fragments of sense and make nonsense out of them. Verily, your creations are Iron Chef-worthy. Of course, that didn't stop spmarshall from putting his planned subway through there...didn't you take note of that?
An Eglinton subway line built today, given few or no other network changes, would have high ridership. But, if certain bus route changes (like routing the 54 straight to Lawrence station, etc), certain subway projects, and certain GO projects are all completed first, Eglinton would be nowhere near able to support a subway line without unprecedented redevelopment. That's why Eglinton is the ultimate fantasy line. Well, for normal people, not transwankers like you.
And you might want to check out the sordid and violent details of Seattle, Washington State's monorail's operational history before proclaiming it a model for all.
Please reply soon!
No, it sucked not having any worthless subway plans to ridicule...spmarshall's plan was quite sound.
And where's the tens of billion$ needed for your plan going to come from? Soberman (note: this is not Sambora, but a different guy) has ensured that the TTC will spend at least half a billion dollars on upgrading the RT while a subway extension might cost $1.2 billion...the difference is approximately what the city will spend on the Spadina extension. Kill the sinkhole extension and fund a certifiably useful extension instead = two birds, one stone?
Yeah, elevated stuff is sooooo much cheaper and quicker to build. Pretty much everyone in this city outside of this forum calls streetcar ROWs "rapid transit"...at least, politicans and the TTC do, and they're the ones that count the most. And since when is Don Mills & Sheppard "low density"? Low density compared to Kowloon? Bangladesh? What? I guess 12 storey highrises are the new bungalows.
You just don't get it, so I'll let you ponder the solution to this one alone for a while, grasshopper...
Yeah, linking random stuff together no matter how long or useless the lines are...we got that.
Then why did you say, on page 3, that the density at Don Mills & York Mills is immense? Remember, back when you proposed turning Sheppard down Don Mills to become a quasi-DRL?
You are mind-numbingly obtuse - that 75,000 figure was a maximum future estimate that covers quite a large area...you want to serve this population with 2 looping subway lines, while other areas in the city with many more people get nothing other than supposedly trivial feeder bus connections.
I thought you said streetcars weren't rapid transit? Anyway, Spadina (except for the 2km stretch to Downsview), the proposed Vaughan extension, the once-proposed Eglinton line, the proposed Sherway line, and the never-proposed MCC line should be excluded because they are outside the timeframe. How do never-proposed lines benefit anyone?
So the Rouge Park and greenbelt will be developed?
Moron - he was referring to McCowan & Lawrence, the Bendale area. McCowan up in Milliken is as dense as any other suburban neighbourhood in the GTA. If memory serves me correctly, you really do love to pick out fragments of sense and make nonsense out of them. Verily, your creations are Iron Chef-worthy. Of course, that didn't stop spmarshall from putting his planned subway through there...didn't you take note of that?
An Eglinton subway line built today, given few or no other network changes, would have high ridership. But, if certain bus route changes (like routing the 54 straight to Lawrence station, etc), certain subway projects, and certain GO projects are all completed first, Eglinton would be nowhere near able to support a subway line without unprecedented redevelopment. That's why Eglinton is the ultimate fantasy line. Well, for normal people, not transwankers like you.
And you might want to check out the sordid and violent details of Seattle, Washington State's monorail's operational history before proclaiming it a model for all.
Please reply soon!
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spmarshall
Guest
I am honoured that my proposal does not meet your expectations.
Ah, a monorail proposal. The truest sign of transitwank.
Mono-D'oh!
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EnviroTO
Guest
I like the plan. I really think pre-metro is a great way to expand the subway network in small but useful pieces.
Good grief... monorail on Eglinton? I can see the silly cable pulled car thing currently at the airport being upgraded to a proper monorail but I don't think a monorail really fits as well in an urban environment. You would need to pick a place which is either suburban, industrial, or not developed yet for a monorail to fit in well. Perhaps Eastern Waterfront / Portlands or the Finch West thing might work as a monorail. There would need to be some serious cost savings using a monorail though before implementing a new form of transit infrastructure would make sense. Right now there is transit bus, LRT/tram, subway, coach bus and heavy rail in the Toronto transit infrastructure... I don't think more modes like monorail would add value... getting rid of the SRT white elephant adds more value than introducing even more modes.
Good grief... monorail on Eglinton? I can see the silly cable pulled car thing currently at the airport being upgraded to a proper monorail but I don't think a monorail really fits as well in an urban environment. You would need to pick a place which is either suburban, industrial, or not developed yet for a monorail to fit in well. Perhaps Eastern Waterfront / Portlands or the Finch West thing might work as a monorail. There would need to be some serious cost savings using a monorail though before implementing a new form of transit infrastructure would make sense. Right now there is transit bus, LRT/tram, subway, coach bus and heavy rail in the Toronto transit infrastructure... I don't think more modes like monorail would add value... getting rid of the SRT white elephant adds more value than introducing even more modes.
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socialwoe
Guest
If by that you mean redundant, unimaginative and 'safe' well I can't argue there. Everyone's entailed to their opinion, mine is that cutting off nearly a third of the city regardless of how many people live there is the notion to ridicule. Since the suburbs are ranked with higher esteem than Metro Toronto on this thread I'll treat East Scarborough and South Etobicoke as the next suburban frontiers for rapid transit in the GTA.
Again where's the money to fund two subway extensions going to come from? What's worse one wouldn't even be a new line serving previously unreached territory, just a preexisting trek when the projected ridership wouldn't justify the expansion. The reality about my subway plans was that it was a fictional, idealistic summation of long-term expansion whether it's needed or not, what you're suggesting however has no basis whatsoever.
Believe you me, I think both proposals stink. The only way to go if costs and expansion are taken into consideration is to expropiate a few feet west, drill a excavation at the north end of the Kennedy parking lot, expand the RT stations, widen the curve N of Ellesmere, fortify the elevated structure, put a third platform at STC, expand further east, link to a BRT/LRT network, hence run the damn subway in the existing alignment!
It IS cheaper and quicker to build. Network 2011 has been on the table for thirty years now and within four years' time how much it has actually been accomplished? As a subway you're right, I'll admit it, there'll probably never be mass transit out to Meadowvale and Port Union but otherwise there's a chance. There's also a greater likelihood everything from the DRL to Queen and Eglinton lines, even something for the suburbs could occur within the next 20 years not 3 or 4 generations from now. Isn't that better than holding out for subways which MAY NEVER MATERIALIZE, will run too short, be placed in ineffective areas and rise fares to the point it'll be cheaper to ride GO than the TTC?
Of course the TTC and politicians will call them RT to decieve the average transit user, how else would they explain continually jacking up cash fares, claiming transit's the city's number one priority for decades now and yet only have a few kms of 'stubway' to show for it (ones that lose 000s in operational revenue everyday by the way). The fact that "streetcar RT/LRT" has deviated into the everyday lingo and mentality of Torontonians just goes to show you how far gone the level of public apathy has become. And it's the commuter who counts the most, only officials don't give a damn!
Also if you see the value of connecting a major node to another even if that means running a line via low-density sprawl areas, why can't you understand the virtue and importance of linking Morningside/West Hill/UTSC to Kennedy or even Rouge Hill/Port Union to Kennedy? Malvern to STC? Pearson to Yonge-Eglinton? Sherway to Kipling? Beaches to Yonge-Queen? Long Branch to Yonge-Queen? Albion Mall via Sheppard West to Sheppard-Yonge? Virtually my entire plan, why can't you grasp what I've been trying to reiterate this entire thread now?
So if YUS was extended to Richmond Hill Ctr/Langstaff GO would this concentration of buses still be an issue? On the other hand between long wait times for bus arrival, boarding time, waiting on the driver to come back from taking a leak/dump, waiting on the the bus in front of us to move, the actual duration of the trip, likely transfering onto another route, we're talking upwards of an hour from STC to someone's home in Malvern. If this fact means nothing to you just because the number of residents ain't as high as you'd like, then I shudder the day you find yourself in the exact same position of 000s of voiceless sufferers such as these and the only person speaking out to save you is being destroyed by dark forces and nemeses :evil !
No you don't get it, sentencing residents, no matter how few, to long bus trips because they were unfortunate enough to not live near Yonge St is no way to tackle urban planning. I told you a line to least Morningside is not long or useless (from Kennedy Stn likely 10 mins at most and has Guildwood condos, Morningside Mall, West Hill commercial/residential area, Centenary Hosp., Centennial HP College, UTSC as major trippers/destinations). Lines out to Fallingbrook, Long Branch, Albion and Zoo (long-term only Rouge Hill) connects every corner of the city to it's centre, hence maximum connectivity=maximum ridership=maximum efficiency=better Toronto.
That was back when I thought I was discoursing with someone wouldn't wasn't flying off the handle with insults at every suggestion I make! Someone who'd grasp it's cheaper to curve the Sheppard line down Don Mills (since Sheppard cannot support a subway anyhow) than starting a DRL line from scratch. And of course it'd be open to public usage alot sooner as well. Graydon Hall in of itself isn't that major sans a few hundred office workers and even fewer Lesmillites. Only Lawrence could handle subway traffic but is relatively close enough to Eglinton to not really need it at all.
I only wish I could post my station layouts, it's hard for me to explain the full scope of my plans without visual aids. But anyhow alot of the heat I get for opposing the DRL is unfounded when you consider my intention to link nearby nodes to heavy rail via tram shuttle or moving escalator. Stops such as Flemingdon Park, Sunnybrook, West Hill and of course Pearson would have these links in place.
Hey I didn't put a subway on Sheppard nor was I apart of the committee that suggested Malvern/Zoo become the route end for the SRT way back yonder. Meadowvale is as far east a line on Sheppard could naturally go. Remember this is just a 'what if'. Also recall I prioritized several other areas in the city ahead of the Zoo, and ideally thought of this extension as a SRT extension until subway upgrade if needed by 2060 or greater. The point is if any of the following is achieved for East Scarborough the disparagity is no longer an issue and future lines could go to whatever dense suburb you please: Markham-Sheppard, Morningside-Ellesmere or Port Union-Lawrence, if not all at least one for Christ's sake!
According to several Google searches and blog visits including from informed individuals on the matter, James Bow and Steve Munro, City of Totonto/TTC were seriously considering the MCC extension but Mayor Hazel's stinginess hulted the issue. On the plus side that really wouldn't beenfit anyone at least not ahead of a Queen Line through the heart of TCC
!Um, no, that would be you. I knew exactly what he meant, but from my personal observation I couldn't see this neo-China/neo-India level of density you're describing anywhere along McCowan up to Steeles. A few condo owners who possess their own means of transportation is no indicator or gurantee of subway success.
I think you're finally grasping why I was against the DRL. For the benefit to anyone nearby the Black Creek/Eglinton or Don Mills/Eglinton intersections it's great but for all the people needing the other nodes along Eglinton it's still detrimental bus claustrophobia. Minimizing it's importance ruins transit as a whole as it's the only major east-west artery that spans the city. You'd overkill BD and only be serving two nodes one of which isn't saying much (York City Centre was cancelled) by this plan and further eliminate any hopes for a Queen line. Hence you're right, Eglinton is truly an ultimate fantasy when a line that's been so obviously needed or so long now will be perpetually backwatered til armegeddon cause guys like you are throwing DRL wrenches in the works, and you don't have to be transwank to see that!
I just found it interesting that people who were mocked, beraved and ridiculed senselessly for their beliefs and yet selflessly put the welfare of their hecklers above their own providing them with effective modes of rapid transit within their lifetimes and getting nothing but greif, anguish and woe for it, made such a political impact in changing policy when all the elected officials wanted to do was place obstacles every step of the way. Hmm, this story reminds me of someone, but who?!
Who great, I'm dealing with people who take their cues from Homer Simpson :rolleyes ! I just wanted to know what a premetro was. I checked Wikipedia but it was written in Austrian. If I hadn't rode on the Pearson Monorail recently I probably wouldn't have suggested it. Apart from the shakiness and lack of seats, it was a real good ride and was by no means an eyesore, if anything it gave the airport a futristic and sleek look. You can't tell me this wouldn't look cool in Yonge-Eglinton. And you should know by now my biggest concern is getting more (greater distance served, more stations per line) for less (time to build, cost).
Done, done and done! Suburban: East Scarborough, South Etobicoke and Northwest North York; industrial: Sheppard-Dixon, Browne's Corner (Markham-Sheppard), Airport Corp. Ctr.; not developed: West Hill, Malvern, Port Union, Long Branch, Beaches, Richview/Princess Margaret. Again if some of my lines were monorail they'd be a reality not a laughability.
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spmarshall
Guest
I didn't know there was an Austrian language.
Actually, I take a lot of cues from the Simpsons....They have a surprising amount of wisdom on transit and urban issues - the Monorail episode is a classic critique on gadgetbahns, transitwank and municipal politics and useless projects (also see Mississauga Transitway - and my Busway adaptation).
Here's the Simpsons on GO Transit commuting (just substitute the nuclear plant for the GO Train Station):
Homer stuck in traffic getting to the GO parking lot (and rushing to get the infrequent monster bilevel train, then having to park so far from the station, he might have well walked (but the chain link fence prevents this of course)
Of cource, Regional Rail is not GO Transit - smaller trains, more frequent, more stations and transit-orientated development make it a perfect alternative to suburban subways to nowhere via nowhere (or busways to suburban centres via nowhere and GO-like parking lots to feed ridership).
Actually, I take a lot of cues from the Simpsons....They have a surprising amount of wisdom on transit and urban issues - the Monorail episode is a classic critique on gadgetbahns, transitwank and municipal politics and useless projects (also see Mississauga Transitway - and my Busway adaptation).
Here's the Simpsons on GO Transit commuting (just substitute the nuclear plant for the GO Train Station):
Homer stuck in traffic getting to the GO parking lot (and rushing to get the infrequent monster bilevel train, then having to park so far from the station, he might have well walked (but the chain link fence prevents this of course)
Of cource, Regional Rail is not GO Transit - smaller trains, more frequent, more stations and transit-orientated development make it a perfect alternative to suburban subways to nowhere via nowhere (or busways to suburban centres via nowhere and GO-like parking lots to feed ridership).