[crs1026]

Have you read the disclaimer in my post? It's the second sentence where I talk about ridership potential.

Unless the built form of that entire area changes dramatically, the ridership potential will never be there. Adding some development along main arterials won’t raise the density to subway levels.

The biggest deterrent to use of transit, and the attribute that gives the car the advantage, in a cityscape such as Mississauga is the need to penetrate into the single family residentail areas with their circuitous, non-linear backstreets. Walking so far to a subway station is no more appealing than walking to a bus stop on the main street.

The built form is such that LRT does have the ability to compete with subway, because stop spacing can be wide, tied to the mainstreet grid, and with proper separation from roads can cover the distance between stops almost as fast as a subway.

But in a city where the big debate is whether LRT is even needed, with BRT possibly just as effective for the next decade or two, building subways is pretty fanciful.

- Paul

 

[sixrings]

this continual talk about getting this line to square one seems ridiculous. The ridership isn't there. But we built to STC and VMC with subways even though other options were available. Once one ridiculous project went through everyone thought their ridiculous project was next. My best example of this was that Sheppard was essentially dead. As soon as shovels went into the ground on STC then the Sheppard advocates came out. Ford did say Subways to pickering.... I dunno.

 

[afransen]

It's another case where one has to ask, just how much LRT could one build for the same money as what you are proposing, and would that be enough riders per hour to suffice.

Take that amount of LRT and multiple by 4 or 5 to get how much BRT one could build. Frankly. Mississauga needs to be blanketed in BRT more than it needs a tunnel to Kipling. More important than both is bring Milton line to all day high frequency service.

 

[sixrings]

Take that amount of LRT and multiple by 4 or 5 to get how much BRT one could build. Frankly. Mississauga needs to be blanketed in BRT more than it needs a tunnel to Kipling. More important than both is bring Milton line to all day high frequency service.

I would just like to hear what your blanket of BRT represents. For the record I was an advocate of that in Scarborough and I am a former Scarborough resident. As a Mississauga resident I don't think the streets are as obvious. Dixie, Burnhamthorpe, Bloor, Mavis, Eglinton?

Yes a GO to Square one running at high frequencies is ideal.

 

[afransen]

I think Metrolinx has a list of candidates. Obviously Dundas is going ahead. Candidates would be Eglinton, Erin Mills, Lakeshore, Derry, Dixie.

 

[drum118]

Have you read the disclaimer in my post? It's the second sentence where I talk about ridership potential.

I can tell you for a fact that there are no numbers for any businesses cases for ridership for all stations. I know those areas very well and have done ridership number's over the years as well travel time for various routes.

You need to look at areas that have ridership's number's today and vision what it may look like 10-50 years down the road if density could happen at those areas to say X will be able to service this area or not. Dixie, Confederation and possible Hurontario will see some sort of density down the road and that is all.

Again, not everyone is going to TO downtown on a daily base or a number of days a week and that includes me.

The money spent to build your dream line would be better spent building an branch line off the Milton Line to the transit terminal as well a number of BRT and LRT lines that will move more riders than your line will every do.

 

[Rainforest]

How about a route like this?

Disclaimer - This is rough drawing and I haven't planned for exact routes and turn radii, ridership potential, etc. This is just an idea.

View attachment 451022

It's a 12+ km route with 10 stations (maybe West Mall station can be skipped). I have deliberately chosen a diagonal route so that this route doesn't just cross all major north-south roads but also major east-west roads such as Bloor, Dundas and Queensway. That way it will intercept multiple north-south and east-west bus routes. The areas around the stations alone won't be enough to generate demand.

It may seem like the line is going under the houses all the way but it's only going under houses between Bloor-Cawthra and Dundas-Tomken. At other diagonal routes, it's either going under parks or industrial/commercial areas.

Can subway go under houses? I believe so because they are already doing that with Yonge Line in York Region. Once we see how Metrolinx is able to tunnel under those houses, we'll know if Metrolinx can replicate that here. The route can be planned in a way that ventilation shafts or emergency exits are somewhere on the internal streets instead of someone's backyards. They may still need to buy some people's front yards.

I have added a station at Confederation which some people may feel unnecessary. Burhamthorpe and Confederation is the centre of the density at MCC (not Square One itself). Mavis and Hurontario stations are 2 km apart so having a station in between a dense area is not superfluous. Right now there isn't that much density at Mavis but MCC is expanding west and that station will be become necessary in 20 years when this line could be built.

I am sure there would be many loopholes with this route and I would like to hear everyone's thoughts.

My pet idea is a fast connection between Square One and Toronto. So that not only Mississauga residents can commute to jobs in Toronto, but Toronto residents can commute to jobs near Square One.

For that purpose, maybe I would reduce the count of stations between Kipling and Square One. Retaining just Cloverdale, Dixie, Cawthra. That would result in less convenient connections with Mississauga bus routes, but a faster trip to Square One that could attract more riders.

No opinion on the Confederation and Mavis stations. If the density is (or will be) there, then sure.

 

[Rainforest]

Unfortunately, the proposal of RER on the Milton GO line as the primary connection for Mississauga isn't going anywhere. I remember that being discussed for at least 15 years, with no results. It seems CP won't permit any kind of substantially more frequent transit service on their mainline.

Therefore, if the Line 2 West extension is not in the cards either, then what is left? Perhaps a branch of Lakeshore West GO, that splits off somewhere west of Long Branch Stn and runs to Square One in a tunnel?

 

[afransen]

My pet idea is a fast connection between Square One and Toronto. So that not only Mississauga residents can commute to jobs in Toronto, but Toronto residents can commute to jobs near Square One.

For that purpose, maybe I would reduce the count of stations between Kipling and Square One. Retaining just Cloverdale, Dixie, Cawthra. That would result in less convenient connections with Mississauga bus routes, but a faster trip to Square One that could attract more riders.

No opinion on the Confederation and Mavis stations. If the density is (or will be) there, then sure.

But a Line 2 extension would not be a fast way to connect the two. If Milton Line was all day and frequent, it would get you from Cooksville to Kipling in 10 minutes and Downtown in 30. Electrify it and it would be even faster. No one in their right mind should envision taking Line 1 and Line 2 from downtown to Sq One, were such a thing possible. Worst case, we'd have Lakeshore GO with 30 minutes to Union, and HuLRT from Sq One to Port Credit in 15 minutes. It takes over 30 minutes on Line 2 and Line 1 to get from Kipling to Union.

 

[Deadpool X]

I can tell you for a fact that there are no numbers for any businesses cases for ridership for all stations. I know those areas very well and have done ridership number's over the years as well travel time for various routes.

You need to look at areas that have ridership's number's today and vision what it may look like 10-50 years down the road if density could happen at those areas to say X will be able to service this area or not. Dixie, Confederation and possible Hurontario will see some sort of density down the road and that is all.

Again, not everyone is going to TO downtown on a daily base or a number of days a week and that includes me.

The money spent to build your dream line would be better spent building an branch line off the Milton Line to the transit terminal as well a number of BRT and LRT lines that will move more riders than your line will every do.

I think you are missing the point that I am trying to convey. I said in my disclaimer that I am not considering ridership potential. This is just a possible option "if Metrolinx decides to extend subway to MCC with or without considering ridership".

Don't worry, I am not Doug Ford or Phil Verster. I won't be blowing away your taxpayer money on something like that. Take my suggested route with a bucket of salt.

 

[crs1026]

Unfortunately, the proposal of RER on the Milton GO line as the primary connection for Mississauga isn't going anywhere. I remember that being discussed for at least 15 years, with no results. It seems CP won't permit any kind of substantially more frequent transit service on their mainline.

Therefore, if the Line 2 West extension is not in the cards either, then what is left? Perhaps a branch of Lakeshore West GO, that splits off somewhere west of Long Branch Stn and runs to Square One in a tunnel?

Important nitpick: CP won’t permit any kind of substantially more frequent service on their mainline without additional track and other investment.

Bring money - not to grease CP’s palms, but simply to add track, and CP will not be an obstacle. CP participated in those earlier studies, btw.

- Paul

 

[sixrings]

Important nitpick: CP won’t permit any kind of substantially more frequent service on their mainline without additional track and other investment.

Bring money - not to grease CP’s palms, but simply to add track, and CP will not be an obstacle. CP participated in those earlier studies, btw.

- Paul

This is what makes the most sense to me. We have to somehow get more tracks on the line. That will mean paying a large bunch of property owners to give Mississauga and Toronto a few metres each of their property. Surely that has to be cheaper than tunnelling everything.

It also means we can have 10 minute frequencies or 5 minute frequencies if we ever needed it.

 

[afransen]

This is what makes the most sense to me. We have to somehow get more tracks on the line. That will mean paying a large bunch of property owners to give Mississauga and Toronto a few metres each of their property. Surely that has to be cheaper than tunnelling everything.

It also means we can have 10 minute frequencies or 5 minute frequencies if we ever needed it.

It sure looks like most of the ROW is wide enough to accommodate 4 tracks. Maybe there are some pinch points where property would need to be acquired, but I can't see it being all that bad. Probably worse is needing a solution for the remaining freight customers to access the CP tracks (flyovers?).

 

[Rainforest]

But a Line 2 extension would not be a fast way to connect the two. If Milton Line was all day and frequent, it would get you from Cooksville to Kipling in 10 minutes and Downtown in 30. Electrify it and it would be even faster. No one in their right mind should envision taking Line 1 and Line 2 from downtown to Sq One, were such a thing possible. Worst case, we'd have Lakeshore GO with 30 minutes to Union, and HuLRT from Sq One to Port Credit in 15 minutes. It takes over 30 minutes on Line 2 and Line 1 to get from Kipling to Union.

Milton line would be the best option. However, that proposal has been made multiple times, ages ago, and still no progress. I can't help thinking the obstacles are more fundamental than just the funding.

A Line 2 extension to Square One would be a rather poor way to connect Square One to Toronto Downtown. Too many stops, and then have to transfer at St George. However, such an extension would be useful for a number of trips from Toronto Midtown to the Square One jobs. Say, someone lives near an N-S bus route not too far from Bloor, and can take a short bus trip and then the subway to a Square One office.

I don't have the demand estimates, maybe the numbers are still not there.

 

[sixrings]

Milton line would be the best option. However, that proposal has been made multiple times, ages ago, and still no progress. I can't help thinking the obstacles are more fundamental than just the funding.

A Line 2 extension to Square One would be a rather poor way to connect Square One to Toronto Downtown. Too many stops, and then have to transfer at St George. However, such an extension would be useful for a number of trips from Toronto Midtown to the Square One jobs. Say, someone lives near an N-S bus route not too far from Bloor, and can take a short bus trip and then the subway to a Square One office.

I don't have the demand estimates, maybe the numbers are still not there.

Or I live at square one and work at Jane and bloor. A subway would suit my needs well.