[picard102]

Are you related to an H5 or something? The amount of vitriol about not saving one of these is not normal.
"future generations" will find a way to cope with the gap in artifacts.

 

[T3G]

Well, advocating that they save everything else (especially the things that replaced them) is not gonna right that wrong, is it? Any future generations for whom it would be a "disservice" to not save anything that came later would just have to deal with it the same way those who want to see the Hawkers saved are forced to deal with it.

This right here is why I feel no sympathy for your position, and why I expect you are having a difficult time finding anyone else who does, either.

So because you didn't get what you want, now no one, from now on through to the end of time, shouldn't get what they want, either? These are thoughts you should keep inside your head, instead of broadcasting them online in search of sympathy. Imagine if the human race had applied this kind of self-interested thinking to righting any kind of historical ill. Humanity would've perished hundreds of years ago.

As I have told you before on numerous occasions, if you want to actually do something constructive to help the Hawker cause, start taking action. And by taking action I don't mean sending emails to politicians suggesting they save it, but canvassing people with like minded interests about buying 5707, and storing it, and pooling your money together for such a cause, when and if Picture Vehicles choose to dispose of it. And establish a relationship with them, so that if and when they decide they no longer need 5707, they think of you instead of the scrap man. Perhaps, when you have done this, you will appreciate how difficult volunteer led preservation actually is. It's easy to sit back and criticize HCRR and spout off asinine conspiracy theories from the comfort of your computer chair for not giving you what you want, but when you actually put your money where your mouth is, you'll find out it's not all sunshine and roses, and preservationists have to be more pragmatic and base their acquisition on criteria that is not "This one individual really wants us to."

Do something about it, or stop complaining.

not to mention that they're almost certainly survived by identical buses across the continent, since a D40 / Orion V / LFS / etc is what it is no matter what transit agency operates it. Not the case with the Hawkers, which are unique everywhere except maybe Ankara (and the fate of those is still largely unknown).

You must be confusing North America with a much smaller nation. If I am a bus fan from Toronto, and I am not obscenely wealthy, how often do you think I would have the opportunity to travel halfway across the continent to photograph a bus model that I like that was saved by some other city? The amount of people who would spend thousands of dollars on cross country trips, for no other reason than to see a historic bus, has to be a vanishingly small amount, and if they do it, they're likely to only do it once or twice in a lifetime.

They've got Orion Vs in New York, the only specimen in a public collection; D901s in Winnipeg, Vancouver, and Kennebunkport. NO D40 has been saved except for the one piece owned by Orion Picture Bus, which may or may not choose to allow public access to it, and may or may not choose to dispose of it if it becomes a liability to operate. There are no D60s, or Classic artics saved (the ones from Halifax, not the fishbowls with the classic front end). Again, if I am not obscenely wealthy, what good is this to me?

It was just another subway car…. Till it wasn’t now. There’s nothing unique with them when they retired.

They most certainly were unique in ways no other cars were that came before or after them.

Why are you guys making these assertions like they are anything but opinions?

There are as many opinions about any given vehicle as there are people who have ever had anything to do with them. Asserting as though it were a fact from a textbook that they are the greatest things in the world or the most boring things in the world is pretty inane. And again, as I said above, whether you personally think they are the bee's knees or the devil's armpits has no bearing whatsoever on whether they get preserved. You wouldn't think the PCCs were special if you were around at their peak when 750 of the things were running around - and the fact that someone really, really liked the PCC had no bearing on whether one got saved or not. Historical collections are not built on the capricious, vain opinions of foamers.

For the love of God, give it a rest.

 

[Islington Express Bus]

On the topic of removing centre polls from the H-6 cars: My dad worked at Wilson Carhouse at the time and he saved a few of them from the dumpster.

One of them now serves as a coat rack in our closet.

 

[picard102]

It's time to donate that to the museum. One piece at a time and we'll be able to gather a full H train for 81-717

 

[Islington Express Bus]

It's time to donate that to the museum. One piece at a time and we'll be able to gather a full H train for 81-717

I could be persuaded to part with it, but you'll never take my collection of H-6 wheels. I need my barbell weights.

 

[81-717]

Are you related to an H5 or something? The amount of vitriol about not saving one of these is not normal.
"future generations" will find a way to cope with the gap in artifacts.

Not per se, but literally everything about them really speaks to me: the interior color scheme is so beautiful and uplifting, the sounds of the door chimes, HVAC, choppers, and traction motors all combined together absolutely perfectly, and the traction motors sounded absolutely incredible and otherworldly, like something straight out of sci-fi / Star Trek. And of course the same people who pretend to not have the slightest clue what I'm talking about are also the ones who love to foam over the sound of the Fishbowls' 6V71N or the sound of the T1s . As for those who think the Hawkers were "just another subway car" and that "there was nothing unique with it", or worse, those who outright hate it and everything it stands for, well, that says something about them, I'll just leave it there.

This right here is why I feel no sympathy for your position, and why I expect you are having a difficult time finding anyone else who does, either.

And this right here is why "they" shouldn't get what they want either. I guess we're at an impasse, then.

This right here is why I feel no sympathy for your position, and why I expect you are having a difficult time finding anyone else who does, either.

So because you didn't get what you want, now no one, from now on through to the end of time, shouldn't get what they want, either?

Then you're asking way too much of me if you expect me to just roll over, take one for the team and concede to the stance of "sucks for you that you didn't get what you want, as long as everyone else does" and not feel a certain type of way. Ever occur to you that maybe you got that backwards and it's precisely because I hardly see anyone showing any sympathy for the Hawker cause that I therefore feel those who aren't pro-Hawker are in no position to feel entitled to get theirs either? Because the way you're saying it certainly makes it sound like "everyone else from now until the end of time" are somehow more entitled to it than me. The sheer hypocrisy of some people never tiring of pointing out "life is full of not getting what you want, it's time you learned that by now, life isn't fair, suck it up" and then getting so butthurt by the idea that they shouldn't get what they want either. They really can't take being on the receiving end of what they're dishing out, eh?

What I want is that my favorite vehicle(s) be allowed to exist, and continue existing, but since I'm obviously not allowed to have that, then I want something else to make up for it: having at least some vehicles I dislike meet the same end (especially when they're considered objectively "better" than, and/or replaced, my favorite vehicles). No, I can't have that either, because any vehicle I dislike is someone else's favorite vehicle, and if I have my way there, they won't have theirs? Well, I'd be a lot more sympathetic to that if I got what I wanted with my favorite vehicles to begin with, otherwise I'm not sympathetic in the slightest. And I never even said "no one from now until the end of time should get what they want", at the end of the day I don't really care if they save a Flexity, Orion VII, Nova, SRT or even the future T1 replacements for that matter, but I am 1000% against anyone saving any of the Hawker replacements (T1s or TRs) unless someone (anyone) saves a Hawker first, and there's nothing you or anyone else can say that will make me change my mind, that's the hill I'll die on.

TLDR: If others have no sympathy for someone who didn't get what they want, then no they shouldn't get what they want either. Least of all if "what they want" is for the Hawkers to forever remain the only cars that got the short end of the stick.

These are thoughts you should keep inside your head, instead of broadcasting them online in search of sympathy.

The sheer audacity to say that to someone who was/is being wronged, coming from someone who isn't. You know what other thoughts people should keep inside their head? Those who say "good riddance" about the Hawkers and love to bitch about how they were all so bad in so many ways. That tells me all I care to know about them, and that they don't deserve to get what they want anyway (they already got what they wanted in terms of having the Hawkers gone ), since the anti-Hawker community obviously love getting off to exacerbating the misery of the pro-Hawker people.

Imagine if the human race had applied this kind of self-interested thinking to righting any kind of historical ill. Humanity would've perished hundreds of years ago.

As if everyone else, who got their way, saying "fuck you, I got mine" to someone who didn't (instead of sympathizing) is any less self-interested? Those are the thoughts they should keep inside their head!

FTFY: Imagine "righting" a historical ill in a way that benefits everyone except the very group(s) of people who actually were wronged, and on top of that, the group(s) who benefit the most are the same ones who actually wronged others. Because that's the more accurate analogy of what you're advocating for.

There's a controversial saying "one person dying is a tragedy, a million people dying is a statistic", and while I certainly don't endorse it nor want to make light of it, the same analogy can and does apply to vehicles (i.e. non-living objects) in this case: one highly unique model of vehicle (such as an H5 or H1–4) going extinct forever is a huge disappointment, but if almost all vehicle models ever built go extinct forever, then it's not nearly as disappointing no matter which side you're on (yes, even if you're on the pro-Hawker side like me), because whichever side you take, the same fate would await both your favorite and least favorite vehicles.

As I have told you before on numerous occasions, if you want to actually do something constructive to help the Hawker cause, start taking action. And by taking action I don't mean sending emails to politicians suggesting they save it, but canvassing people with like minded interests about buying 5707, and storing it, and pooling your money together for such a cause, when and if Picture Vehicles choose to dispose of it. And establish a relationship with them, so that if and when they decide they no longer need 5707, they think of you instead of the scrap man.

Do something about it, or stop complaining.

So I hear your suggestion, and I did reach out to Picture Vehicles since then (this past August), starting off with a "thank you once again for letting me see it in 2022", and inquiring how much it would cost to buy it, get it transported, and store it (and where might be a good place to store it) IF they ever decide to let go of it. If it's not an obscenely huge amount, I would even be willing to buy it from them and then pay them monthly to keep it stored on their property where it is now, if & when they're done with it (that would actually be the simplest solution as far as storing it goes, and yes I did suggest that idea to them). I still remember seeing a headline years ago "Montreal selling old metro cars for $750", so if the cost for 5707 would be somewhere in the same ballpark then I can do that. Of course, if they intend to keep it permanently with no chance of that ever changing, there would be no issue requiring urgent action on my part.

Unfortunately, they never got back to me, so I'm afraid there's not much more I can do at this point, if at all. Moreover, apparently (according to a reddit post, so take it with a grain of salt) it became a victim of another break-in/vandalism recently (not the one time in early 2023), which is bad enough in itself, but the timing (soon after I sent my inquiry to Picture Vehicles) makes it even worse. I sure hope they won't end up disposing of it because of that.

And if sending emails to politicians is not an acceptable course of action in your book, what business do politicians have to be announcing and celebrating SRT preservation themselves? When I first voiced my grievance on cptdb a decade ago only to get the same kind of snarky dismissive responses, I was told (besides "do it yourself") to "lobby your politicians to provide funding to the museum". So I thought I might as well do that (lobby politicians to save a Hawker while they're at it saving the SRT).

As for canvassing people with like-minded interests and pooling our money together for the 5707 cause, would you care to join me on that as one of those like-minded people, and perhaps help find a few more people (serious question)? Oh wait, if you've already moved to CZ/SK, I guess you couldn't even if you wanted to (which I get the sense you don't)...

Why are you guys making these assertions like they are anything but opinions?

There are as many opinions about any given vehicle as there are people who have ever had anything to do with them. Asserting as though it were a fact from a textbook that they are the greatest things in the world or the most boring things in the world is pretty inane.

Then assertions like:

– "the Gs & Ms are far more historically important than the Hawkers"
– "the T1s & TRs are objectively far superior to the Hawkers in every way"
and, wait for it:
– "the H6s were all bad with no redeeming qualities"

are ALSO nothing but opinions (and ones that personally mean nothing to me, because when combined together they're all an indictment against the Hawkers' existence itself).

 

[T3G]

As for why I can't save one for myself, it's because I simply don't have all the tools and resources at my disposal that the ttc and hcrr obviously DO have. I couldn't even save one SRT car if I wanted to,

How do you expect that any preservation society ever got started? Halton County was the brainchild of a bunch of regular guys who were into transit. They saw that their favourite cars were endangered, and wanted to do something about it. They were not rich, and they did not have the backing of government or big business. Their resources that they have today were not present to them in the beginning, and their resources that they do have are incredibly modest when compared to someone like the TTC. It was the production of dedication, perseverance, hard work, and realism. If you have no interest in doing the same, what right have you to criticize Halton County for not picking up your favourite subway car?

But since you think it's so easy for Halton, I recommend reading Railway Adventure by LTC Rolt if you wanted to read about the headaches and nightmares that go into the operation of a volunteer run enterprise. It turns out snapping your fingers and saying "save my favourite subway, peasant", is not compatible with the reality on the ground, such as it is.

Then why do you expect me to have sympathy for the stance of "let everyone else have what they want except you, you're SOL"?

You can think whatever you like, I don't care. But when you come onto not one, but two public forums, continuously lamenting that a subway car being retired is the worst thing to ever happen, over and over again, you will forgive me if you find I am not sympathetic in the slightest. All life is a series of problems and challenges, sometimes they go your way, sometimes they don't. You either master your circumstances, or you are mastered by them.

 

[picard102]

Sure, the same way you and others are related to the G-cars. They may not have smelled like moisture, but I hope you enjoyed inhaling all the carcinogenic brake dust

You have the wrong person if you think I'm old enough to have ridden a g-car, or would have the same level of anger over it not being preserved as you do for the H series.

 

[drum118]

Did TTC have the yard space to store the first 2 batch of cars let alone the H cars??

Were any of them worth well saving??

Did TTC think it was worth well retaining any type of vehicles and if so when did it start??

Lots of various type equipment has been used by the city/TTC since 1900 and how many remain around???

 

[T3G]

Did TTC have the yard space to store the first 2 batch of cars let alone the H cars??

I suspect this may be the driving argument behind not saving any subway cars, period (though the lack of preserved buses from that era tells me indifference to heritage is a significant factor as well).

They are HUGE, they take up a lot of space. And there is no convenient place to display them to the public. Unlike a bus that can be taken out into the street, there is no way of doing this with a subway car where it's not blocking regular service - and you'd need a full consist to take up the platform, which would therefore take up even more yard space. Maintaining historical subway cars that would only be viewed by the public once in a blue moon at the Greenwood open house would also be a financial non starter - subway charters are infinitely harder than bus charters, so there would be next to no opportunity to recoup the financial losses of maintaining them. Our simplistic version of subway infrastructure (as compared with New York's) works against the idea of a heritage fleet.

The easiest thing would have been for someone else to buy one and display it on a plinth, like that old Redbird subway car that was parked in the front of the Queens borough hall in NY for many years.

Were any of them worth well saving??

This is a completely irrelevant argument, on the other hand. I'm sure if you asked the average passenger in 2011 whether a GM was worth saving, they would respond in the negative. Or perhaps an old timer who remembered the PCCs and did not wish to see a CLRV saved, whether a CLRV was worth saving. Everything is worth saving to someone - I'm sure you'll find someone who wishes that the RTS demo 1000 was kept in the historical fleet.

As I said more politely in a previous post, if we let self-absorbed people who can't see beyond the tips of their own noses dictate what gets done with the heritage fleet, we have already lost. This is not a sound strategy for preserving our past.

 

[turbanplanner]

Are you related to an H5 or something? The amount of vitriol about not saving one of these is not normal.
"future generations" will find a way to cope with the gap in artifacts.

I do wish we preserved them and h6's!

It's sad a memory shared by several million people is gone forever

 

[drum118]

I suspect this may be the driving argument behind not saving any subway cars, period (though the lack of preserved buses from that era tells me indifference to heritage is a significant factor as well).

They are HUGE, they take up a lot of space. And there is no convenient place to display them to the public. Unlike a bus that can be taken out into the street, there is no way of doing this with a subway car where it's not blocking regular service - and you'd need a full consist to take up the platform, which would therefore take up even more yard space. Maintaining historical subway cars that would only be viewed by the public once in a blue moon at the Greenwood open house would also be a financial non starter - subway charters are infinitely harder than bus charters, so there would be next to no opportunity to recoup the financial losses of maintaining them. Our simplistic version of subway infrastructure (as compared with New York's) works against the idea of a heritage fleet.

The easiest thing would have been for someone else to buy one and display it on a plinth, like that old Redbird subway car that was parked in the front of the Queens borough hall in NY for many years.


This is a completely irrelevant argument, on the other hand. I'm sure if you asked the average passenger in 2011 whether a GM was worth saving, they would respond in the negative. Or perhaps an old timer who remembered the PCCs and did not wish to see a CLRV saved, whether a CLRV was worth saving. Everything is worth saving to someone - I'm sure you'll find someone who wishes that the RTS demo 1000 was kept in the historical fleet.

As I said more politely in a previous post, if we let self-absorbed people who can't see beyond the tips of their own noses dictate what gets done with the heritage fleet, we have already lost. This is not a sound strategy for preserving our past.

There is a huge cost keeping past vehicles that are workable from land use, cost to maintain them, people who are qualify to work on them as well building parts to keep them in running conditions.

At the same time, as TTC moves to ATO, those subway cars have no place to run, let alone having the public see them up close first hand.

Its the same thing for TTC Heritage Streetcar fleet that are hidden from sight with no idea if pans will be added to them as well the cost to do it.

When it comes to buses, you need to find the right one due to retire that is in good condition all around that can be maintain easy down the road. Very few system do this at all. There isn't a trolley bus in TTC Heritage Bus fleet today as it would have to be tow to an event like the one a Danforth Garage if there was one.

NYC has a heritage train that is brough out a few times of the year for special events where the public can ride it and the only one I know of for NA. Cannot speak to Europe and haven't heard if anyone does keep any around for their system.

Lot of Europe systems keep some of the heritage streetcar fleet and run them during the summer on weekends or 7 day a week and been on a number of them with the oldest at 115 years.

 

[81-717]

You have the wrong person if you think I'm old enough to have ridden a g-car, or would have the same level of anger over it not being preserved as you do for the H series.

I must've confused you with Steve X who expressed his wishes of bringing back G-car nostalgia. Maybe because you liked his comment about the G-cars, I assumed you were part of the same crowd.

I can't even reminisce without you jumping me with your baseless conspiracy theories.

It's easy to sit back and criticize HCRR and spout off asinine conspiracy theories from the comfort of your computer chair for not giving you what you want

Yeah? How's this for "baseless conspiracy theories"?

Tell me, without telling me, that this "baseless conspiracy theory" is 1 wrong decision away from coming true (and that you want it to). Because almost everything you say behind my back (without me "jumping you with my 'baseless' conspiracy theories" as you put it) says basically that (I'll give you the part when you said it's a shame the Hawkers didn't get saved, but that's it), while using the "moving goalposts" excuse to justify/rationalize it. You think the Hawkers should forever remain the only cars to not be saved just because they had the worst luck of being the only cars to retire when there was no opportunity to save them, whereas the goalposts could move so that the opportunity may or may not exist when the T1s retire. Or that the T1s "should" be kept in service much longer than the Hawkers just because the goalposts moved such that the whole world suddenly shifted overnight from a 30 year to a 40+ year design life while the T1s are still around but the Hawkers aren't, and somehow even "world-class" systems that were always known to have nothing but shiny brand-new Hong-Kong-style trains suddenly turned out to have 40–60 year old trains still running with no sign of replacement in sight.

You can think whatever you like, I don't care. But when you come onto not one, but two public forums, continuously lamenting that a subway car being retired is the worst thing to ever happen, over and over again, you will forgive me if you find I am not sympathetic in the slightest.

Then you too will forgive me for feeling and expressing the exact same lack of sympathy for some/most (not all) others not getting their way, and wishing that the exact same fate catches up to vehicles I don't like or am not interested in, even if that includes some of your favorite vehicles. And you will also forgive me if you find I am far more sympathetic to someone "taking action" by interfering with preservation decisions than I am to you jumping on your moral high horse about how THAT'S the worst thing to ever happen. And before you respond with "how would you feel if someone did that to the Hawkers", this is the wrong circumstance to be asking that because the end result is indistinguishable from reality anyway. Had a Hawker been saved, there would be no incentive for me to make any excuses/justifications for those who interfere with the preservation of something else, and if someone interfered and prevented the Hawkers from being saved, then damn right I'd be hoping someone would do the same for some other vehicle(s) I don't like. No, I'm not happy about 5707 being burglarized (twice), I'm just glad it's nonetheless still here. And if someone has some kind of vendetta against it because their favorite vehicle was scrapped, then I might be slightly more forgiving, if it was something one-of-a-kind like the H5s were.

If you have no interest in doing the same, what right have you to criticize Halton County for not picking up your favourite subway car?

But since you think it's so easy for Halton

It's not that I have no interest in doing the same, it's that I have no ability to. Surely you already knew that. But that's not the point. The point is, WHY is it necessarily on me (and no one else) to save my favorite subway car, when it's not on SRT foamers to save the SRT (same goes for everything else that was saved by a transit agency or preservation society and not by those who foam over it)?? At the end of the day, no matter how difficult it actually is for transit agencies / preservation societies, it still is much easier for them than it is for me! Nothing screams "that was easy" more than saving 9 fucking SRT cars (which I'm sure take up as much space as not 1 or 2 but 4 subway cars, even if only 1 out of 9 is going to HCRR)! Obviously it is so easy for them as long as the involved vehicle isn't a Hawker, because everyone and their grandma knows that the Hawkers are the only vehicles infamous for making everything difficult and whose very existence itself is a liability.

If you have $1000, and I have $1, would you pressure me into donating my $1 to some cause we both care about so I'm left with nothing while you still have your 1000, instead of simply giving $1 yourself leaving you with "only" 999? Would you not expect me to criticize you over that? Even though it's your money that you can do whatever with?

So, to answer your question, what right have I to criticize the TTC for not keeping my favorite subway car, and preservation societies (not just Halton but also any others that acquired anything from Toronto) for not picking up my favorite subway car, yes I do have every right, especially when they have no qualms about saving everything else under the sun, and ESPECIALLY if and when they decide to pick up a different (TTC) subway car instead.

"save my favourite subway, peasant"

You spelled "hypocrite" wrong but ok (and yes, if they ever pick up another (TTC) subway car but not a Hawker, that WILL make them hypocrites).

 

[Steve X]

Of course I'd love to do the same with 5707, having it in my possession on my own property would be even better than having to go somewhere to see it. But unfortunately in my circumstances it's likely a non-starter.

I must've confused you with Steve X who expressed his wishes of bringing back G-car nostalgia.

Of all the yard space used to store nearly 1000 in-service cars, I have a hard time buying the excuse that 1 or 2 saved cars of each type are the make-or-break point.

Why else would they have one of each tram type, the Fishbowls and now 2 Orion VIIs as well? And I suspect the LFSs will be up there too.

More than 9 SRT cars? Yeah I call shenanigans on that.

The only reason a PCC Guy (hah!) would be against saving a CLRV is if not a single PCC were...

But was it scrapped though? Did it have a different engine than the production RTSs? Did the TPS get rid of the one they acquired around 2015 and send it to scrap? Does NYC not have one in their historical fleet?

BTW, whatever happened to that Orion VII HEV demo unit that was unveiled at the TTC around 2002?

Did HCRR have any before getting rid of all their buses and becoming 100% rail?

Many systems in Europe certainly do, including Munich, Berlin, Prague, Warsaw, Budapest, Stockholm, and others.

Yeah I really don't understand why trams are the #1 mode of transit that always get preserved everywhere, more than any other mode, period.

The biggest reason is incompatibility. Everything up to and including the T1s can't run on Line 1 now. Trams are more compatible to the system but even our fleet still have overhead hurdles and are sidelined.

Eventually they'll update Line 2 and possibility Line 4 if that every gets extended.

 

[picard102]

It's sad a memory shared by several million people is gone forever

The memory is certainly alive, well, and angry around these parts.