[picard102]

Are you related to an H5 or something? The amount of vitriol about not saving one of these is not normal.
"future generations" will find a way to cope with the gap in artifacts.

 

[T3G]

Well, advocating that they save everything else (especially the things that replaced them) is not gonna right that wrong, is it? Any future generations for whom it would be a "disservice" to not save anything that came later would just have to deal with it the same way those who want to see the Hawkers saved are forced to deal with it.

This right here is why I feel no sympathy for your position, and why I expect you are having a difficult time finding anyone else who does, either.

So because you didn't get what you want, now no one, from now on through to the end of time, shouldn't get what they want, either? These are thoughts you should keep inside your head, instead of broadcasting them online in search of sympathy. Imagine if the human race had applied this kind of self-interested thinking to righting any kind of historical ill. Humanity would've perished hundreds of years ago.

As I have told you before on numerous occasions, if you want to actually do something constructive to help the Hawker cause, start taking action. And by taking action I don't mean sending emails to politicians suggesting they save it, but canvassing people with like minded interests about buying 5707, and storing it, and pooling your money together for such a cause, when and if Picture Vehicles choose to dispose of it. And establish a relationship with them, so that if and when they decide they no longer need 5707, they think of you instead of the scrap man. Perhaps, when you have done this, you will appreciate how difficult volunteer led preservation actually is. It's easy to sit back and criticize HCRR and spout off asinine conspiracy theories from the comfort of your computer chair for not giving you what you want, but when you actually put your money where your mouth is, you'll find out it's not all sunshine and roses, and preservationists have to be more pragmatic and base their acquisition on criteria that is not "This one individual really wants us to."

Do something about it, or stop complaining.

not to mention that they're almost certainly survived by identical buses across the continent, since a D40 / Orion V / LFS / etc is what it is no matter what transit agency operates it. Not the case with the Hawkers, which are unique everywhere except maybe Ankara (and the fate of those is still largely unknown).

You must be confusing North America with a much smaller nation. If I am a bus fan from Toronto, and I am not obscenely wealthy, how often do you think I would have the opportunity to travel halfway across the continent to photograph a bus model that I like that was saved by some other city? The amount of people who would spend thousands of dollars on cross country trips, for no other reason than to see a historic bus, has to be a vanishingly small amount, and if they do it, they're likely to only do it once or twice in a lifetime.

They've got Orion Vs in New York, the only specimen in a public collection; D901s in Winnipeg, Vancouver, and Kennebunkport. NO D40 has been saved except for the one piece owned by Orion Picture Bus, which may or may not choose to allow public access to it, and may or may not choose to dispose of it if it becomes a liability to operate. There are no D60s, or Classic artics saved (the ones from Halifax, not the fishbowls with the classic front end). Again, if I am not obscenely wealthy, what good is this to me?

It was just another subway car…. Till it wasn’t now. There’s nothing unique with them when they retired.

They most certainly were unique in ways no other cars were that came before or after them.

Why are you guys making these assertions like they are anything but opinions?

There are as many opinions about any given vehicle as there are people who have ever had anything to do with them. Asserting as though it were a fact from a textbook that they are the greatest things in the world or the most boring things in the world is pretty inane. And again, as I said above, whether you personally think they are the bee's knees or the devil's armpits has no bearing whatsoever on whether they get preserved. You wouldn't think the PCCs were special if you were around at their peak when 750 of the things were running around - and the fact that someone really, really liked the PCC had no bearing on whether one got saved or not. Historical collections are not built on the capricious, vain opinions of foamers.

For the love of God, give it a rest.

 

[Islington Express Bus]

On the topic of removing centre polls from the H-6 cars: My dad worked at Wilson Carhouse at the time and he saved a few of them from the dumpster.

One of them now serves as a coat rack in our closet.

 

[picard102]

It's time to donate that to the museum. One piece at a time and we'll be able to gather a full H train for 81-717

 

[Islington Express Bus]

It's time to donate that to the museum. One piece at a time and we'll be able to gather a full H train for 81-717

I could be persuaded to part with it, but you'll never take my collection of H-6 wheels. I need my barbell weights.

 

[81-717]

Are you related to an H5 or something? The amount of vitriol about not saving one of these is not normal.
"future generations" will find a way to cope with the gap in artifacts.

Sure, the same way you and others are related to the G-cars. They may not have smelled like moisture, but I hope you enjoyed inhaling all the carcinogenic brake dust

how often do you think I would have the opportunity to travel halfway across the continent to photograph a bus model that I like that was saved by some other city?

You travel to Czechoslovakia like at least once a year, so probably whenever you feel like it. But what difference does that make?? Just because you don't get to see them doesn't mean they don't exist. For what it's worth, if Ankara saves one I'll be somewhat content (all I know is they're in storage awaiting possible refurbishment, sometimes used on special occasions, which I suppose is a favorable sign as far as preservation goes), even if I don't get a chance to travel over there to see it in person, because reasons. As for why I can't save one for myself, it's because I simply don't have all the tools and resources at my disposal that the ttc and hcrr obviously DO have. I couldn't even save one SRT car if I wanted to, yet here they are saving 9 of the damn things without asking anyone else, let alone SRT foamers, to do it for them.

This right here is why I feel no sympathy for your position, and why I expect you are having a difficult time finding anyone else who does, either.

Then why do you expect me to have sympathy for the stance of "let everyone else have what they want except you, you're SOL"?

 

[T3G]

As for why I can't save one for myself, it's because I simply don't have all the tools and resources at my disposal that the ttc and hcrr obviously DO have. I couldn't even save one SRT car if I wanted to,

How do you expect that any preservation society ever got started? Halton County was the brainchild of a bunch of regular guys who were into transit. They saw that their favourite cars were endangered, and wanted to do something about it. They were not rich, and they did not have the backing of government or big business. Their resources that they have today were not present to them in the beginning, and their resources that they do have are incredibly modest when compared to someone like the TTC. It was the production of dedication, perseverance, hard work, and realism. If you have no interest in doing the same, what right have you to criticize Halton County for not picking up your favourite subway car?

But since you think it's so easy for Halton, I recommend reading Railway Adventure by LTC Rolt if you wanted to read about the headaches and nightmares that go into the operation of a volunteer run enterprise. It turns out snapping your fingers and saying "save my favourite subway, peasant", is not compatible with the reality on the ground, such as it is.

Then why do you expect me to have sympathy for the stance of "let everyone else have what they want except you, you're SOL"?

You can think whatever you like, I don't care. But when you come onto not one, but two public forums, continuously lamenting that a subway car being retired is the worst thing to ever happen, over and over again, you will forgive me if you find I am not sympathetic in the slightest. All life is a series of problems and challenges, sometimes they go your way, sometimes they don't. You either master your circumstances, or you are mastered by them.

 

[picard102]

Sure, the same way you and others are related to the G-cars. They may not have smelled like moisture, but I hope you enjoyed inhaling all the carcinogenic brake dust

You have the wrong person if you think I'm old enough to have ridden a g-car, or would have the same level of anger over it not being preserved as you do for the H series.

 

[drum118]

Did TTC have the yard space to store the first 2 batch of cars let alone the H cars??

Were any of them worth well saving??

Did TTC think it was worth well retaining any type of vehicles and if so when did it start??

Lots of various type equipment has been used by the city/TTC since 1900 and how many remain around???

 

[T3G]

Did TTC have the yard space to store the first 2 batch of cars let alone the H cars??

I suspect this may be the driving argument behind not saving any subway cars, period (though the lack of preserved buses from that era tells me indifference to heritage is a significant factor as well).

They are HUGE, they take up a lot of space. And there is no convenient place to display them to the public. Unlike a bus that can be taken out into the street, there is no way of doing this with a subway car where it's not blocking regular service - and you'd need a full consist to take up the platform, which would therefore take up even more yard space. Maintaining historical subway cars that would only be viewed by the public once in a blue moon at the Greenwood open house would also be a financial non starter - subway charters are infinitely harder than bus charters, so there would be next to no opportunity to recoup the financial losses of maintaining them. Our simplistic version of subway infrastructure (as compared with New York's) works against the idea of a heritage fleet.

The easiest thing would have been for someone else to buy one and display it on a plinth, like that old Redbird subway car that was parked in the front of the Queens borough hall in NY for many years.

Were any of them worth well saving??

This is a completely irrelevant argument, on the other hand. I'm sure if you asked the average passenger in 2011 whether a GM was worth saving, they would respond in the negative. Or perhaps an old timer who remembered the PCCs and did not wish to see a CLRV saved, whether a CLRV was worth saving. Everything is worth saving to someone - I'm sure you'll find someone who wishes that the RTS demo 1000 was kept in the historical fleet.

As I said more politely in a previous post, if we let self-absorbed people who can't see beyond the tips of their own noses dictate what gets done with the heritage fleet, we have already lost. This is not a sound strategy for preserving our past.

 

[turbanplanner]

Are you related to an H5 or something? The amount of vitriol about not saving one of these is not normal.
"future generations" will find a way to cope with the gap in artifacts.

I do wish we preserved them and h6's!

It's sad a memory shared by several million people is gone forever

 

[drum118]

I suspect this may be the driving argument behind not saving any subway cars, period (though the lack of preserved buses from that era tells me indifference to heritage is a significant factor as well).

They are HUGE, they take up a lot of space. And there is no convenient place to display them to the public. Unlike a bus that can be taken out into the street, there is no way of doing this with a subway car where it's not blocking regular service - and you'd need a full consist to take up the platform, which would therefore take up even more yard space. Maintaining historical subway cars that would only be viewed by the public once in a blue moon at the Greenwood open house would also be a financial non starter - subway charters are infinitely harder than bus charters, so there would be next to no opportunity to recoup the financial losses of maintaining them. Our simplistic version of subway infrastructure (as compared with New York's) works against the idea of a heritage fleet.

The easiest thing would have been for someone else to buy one and display it on a plinth, like that old Redbird subway car that was parked in the front of the Queens borough hall in NY for many years.


This is a completely irrelevant argument, on the other hand. I'm sure if you asked the average passenger in 2011 whether a GM was worth saving, they would respond in the negative. Or perhaps an old timer who remembered the PCCs and did not wish to see a CLRV saved, whether a CLRV was worth saving. Everything is worth saving to someone - I'm sure you'll find someone who wishes that the RTS demo 1000 was kept in the historical fleet.

As I said more politely in a previous post, if we let self-absorbed people who can't see beyond the tips of their own noses dictate what gets done with the heritage fleet, we have already lost. This is not a sound strategy for preserving our past.

There is a huge cost keeping past vehicles that are workable from land use, cost to maintain them, people who are qualify to work on them as well building parts to keep them in running conditions.

At the same time, as TTC moves to ATO, those subway cars have no place to run, let alone having the public see them up close first hand.

Its the same thing for TTC Heritage Streetcar fleet that are hidden from sight with no idea if pans will be added to them as well the cost to do it.

When it comes to buses, you need to find the right one due to retire that is in good condition all around that can be maintain easy down the road. Very few system do this at all. There isn't a trolley bus in TTC Heritage Bus fleet today as it would have to be tow to an event like the one a Danforth Garage if there was one.

NYC has a heritage train that is brough out a few times of the year for special events where the public can ride it and the only one I know of for NA. Cannot speak to Europe and haven't heard if anyone does keep any around for their system.

Lot of Europe systems keep some of the heritage streetcar fleet and run them during the summer on weekends or 7 day a week and been on a number of them with the oldest at 115 years.

 

[81-717]

If you have no interest in doing the same, what right have you to criticize Halton County for not picking up your favourite subway car?

Of course I'd love to do the same with 5707, having it in my possession on my own property would be even better than having to go somewhere to see it. But unfortunately in my circumstances it's likely a non-starter.

I could be persuaded to part with it, but you'll never take my collection of H-6 wheels. I need my barbell weights.

Do you actually have them, or were you being sarcastic? By chance, do you happen to have an H5 or H6 traction motor as well? That would certainly be a valuable artifact.

You have the wrong person if you think I'm old enough to have ridden a g-car, or would have the same level of anger over it not being preserved as you do for the H series.

I must've confused you with Steve X who expressed his wishes of bringing back G-car nostalgia.

Did TTC have the yard space to store the first 2 batch of cars let alone the H cars??

Of all the yard space used to store nearly 1000 in-service cars, I have a hard time buying the excuse that 1 or 2 saved cars of each type are the make-or-break point.

Did TTC think it was worth well retaining any type of vehicles and if so when did it start?? Lots of various type equipment has been used by the city/TTC since 1900 and how many remain around???

Why else would they have one of each tram type, the Fishbowls and now 2 Orion VIIs as well? And I suspect the LFSs will be up there too.

They are HUGE, they take up a lot of space.

More than 9 SRT cars? Yeah I call shenanigans on that.

Or perhaps an old timer who remembered the PCCs and did not wish to see a CLRV saved

The only reason a PCC Guy (hah!) would be against saving a CLRV is if not a single PCC were...

I'm sure you'll find someone who wishes that the RTS demo 1000 was kept in the historical fleet.

But was it scrapped though? Did it have a different engine than the production RTSs? Did the TPS get rid of the one they acquired around 2015 and send it to scrap? Does NYC not have one in their historical fleet?

BTW, whatever happened to that Orion VII HEV demo unit that was unveiled at the TTC around 2002?

There isn't a trolley bus in TTC Heritage Bus fleet today

Did HCRR have any before getting rid of all their buses and becoming 100% rail?

Cannot speak to Europe and haven't heard if anyone does keep any around for their system.

Many systems in Europe certainly do, including Munich, Berlin, Prague, Warsaw, Budapest, Stockholm, and others.

Lot of Europe systems keep some of the heritage streetcar fleet

Yeah I really don't understand why trams are the #1 mode of transit that always get preserved everywhere, more than any other mode, period.

 

[Steve X]

Of course I'd love to do the same with 5707, having it in my possession on my own property would be even better than having to go somewhere to see it. But unfortunately in my circumstances it's likely a non-starter.

I must've confused you with Steve X who expressed his wishes of bringing back G-car nostalgia.

Of all the yard space used to store nearly 1000 in-service cars, I have a hard time buying the excuse that 1 or 2 saved cars of each type are the make-or-break point.

Why else would they have one of each tram type, the Fishbowls and now 2 Orion VIIs as well? And I suspect the LFSs will be up there too.

More than 9 SRT cars? Yeah I call shenanigans on that.

The only reason a PCC Guy (hah!) would be against saving a CLRV is if not a single PCC were...

But was it scrapped though? Did it have a different engine than the production RTSs? Did the TPS get rid of the one they acquired around 2015 and send it to scrap? Does NYC not have one in their historical fleet?

BTW, whatever happened to that Orion VII HEV demo unit that was unveiled at the TTC around 2002?

Did HCRR have any before getting rid of all their buses and becoming 100% rail?

Many systems in Europe certainly do, including Munich, Berlin, Prague, Warsaw, Budapest, Stockholm, and others.

Yeah I really don't understand why trams are the #1 mode of transit that always get preserved everywhere, more than any other mode, period.

The biggest reason is incompatibility. Everything up to and including the T1s can't run on Line 1 now. Trams are more compatible to the system but even our fleet still have overhead hurdles and are sidelined.

Eventually they'll update Line 2 and possibility Line 4 if that every gets extended.

 

[picard102]

It's sad a memory shared by several million people is gone forever

The memory is certainly alive, well, and angry around these parts.