[dowlingm]

T-series trains are 3.14m wide before accounting for signal and power needs.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Thank you. A couple of comments:

• Which side of Consumers, and would this station be immediately underground. Let's say SW corner and underground. That means that track would be about 5m underground and to be elevated over a road, it would have to be at elevation 6m minimum (5m clearance to road, and 1m for bridge structure). Assuming a subway can handle 2.5% grades, this means the track needs 440m length to rise the appropriate amount. (it would actually be more than this since there would have to be a vertical curve to transition from flat grade to 2.5% grade). Let's say 500m and still likely more.
• The first street (Alta Blvd) is only ~175m to the East - It would have to be closed. After that is Settlers Road, about ~350m from Consumers - it too would have to be closed.
• It wouldn't be until opposite the mall that there would be sufficient elevation to clear a road - either Sheppard, or a re-aligned Settlers Road.
• This is actually a very large problem. Even on the north side this is a problem.
• I would suggest that the line may have to become elevated before 404. I don't know the exact geometry of the Don Mills station, but I understand it is quite deep and on the north side of Sheppard. The line would have to go under Sheppard (to avoid the off-ramp) and then it has right until the highway to rise to the correct elevation. This, I believe, is why Michael Schabas wanted to switch to SkyTrain since they can handle much steeper grades (~5%).

I would first ask, where do I want the station - north or south side. Generally I prefer south so shadows are not cast on properties. I don't know the answer, but I can point out that a new road costs maybe $2M per lane km. Thus shifting Sheppard north and utilizing space on the south is not a huge cost compared to the savings from elevation. (I also think there is space on the South side without doing this, or maybe with just a single lane shift to the north). Generally, I would not want to cross back and forth over Sheppard unless absolutely needed.

Even a station on south side would serve some apartments, and a ped bridge would access the mall - which would grow towards the ped bridge with some development to create a full indoor experience.

I would imagine this station would be on the East side of the tracks. It would have to rise to 7.2m to clear the Markham GO tracks and then drop to fit under the CPR (Crosstown) line. I havenet checked to see if the grades would work. I think I checked it before for SkyTrain and had no problems.

I think you have 500m from the CPR to the 401, this may be enough space to elevate over 401 - much less disruptive than building a new bridge over a combined GO and subway.

Again, There is 200m from Borough Drive to the STC station - not enough room to descend. I think it would have to descend west of Brimley.

It may be a bit tight to fit 4 tracks on the SRT corridor between Midland and Brimley. I guess you are saying the B-D tracks would be lower, and the Sheppard tracks above. It may be possible for 1 of the lines to switch to Golden Gate Court and then come in with a new STC station about 100m south of the current location. or just interline the tracks just east of Midland.

The elevated rail line would be about 8m wide. 2 tracks for 3.0m wide trains and a 2.0m (emergency) walkway. This would be supported on ~2.0m diameter pier columns with pier caps. thus, the 2m bike lane,could be on the street side of the pier column, and the sidewalk on the opposite side. This changes the math a bit.

From South to North
3m buffer
8m track (includes 3m sidewalk, 2m pier column, and 2m bike lane)
1m buffer
16m roadway
1m buffer
2m bike lane
3m sidewalk
2m buffer
Two things that can be done.
Use U girders where the train runs inside the girders - this lowers the grade for trains (and passengers) to climb. It creates partial height walls for noise abatement.
Glass enclosure over the roof.

The wide gauge the ttc uses is another problem, I think they would have to do something like this

 

[BurlOak]

I think elevated subway is just not technically possible.

Tunneled under 404 and then cut-and-cover along Sheppard is possible.
Convert to SkyTrain (or something similar that can handle steeper grades) and then elevated is possible.

 

[W. K. Lis]

The wide gauge the ttc uses is another problem, I think they would have to do something like this

The track gauge is nothing. Standard gauge is 1,435 mm (4 ft 81⁄2 in), TTC gauge is 1,495 mm (4 ft 107⁄8 in). Philadelphia uses 1,581 mm (5 ft 21⁄4 in) on its gauge and New Orleans streetcars use 1,588 mm (5 ft 21⁄2 in). See link for list of track gauges around the world.

 

[Rainforest]

The track gauge is nothing. Standard gauge is 1,435 mm (4 ft 81⁄2 in), TTC gauge is 1,495 mm (4 ft 107⁄8 in). Philadelphia uses 1,581 mm (5 ft 21⁄4 in) on its gauge and New Orleans streetcars use 1,588 mm (5 ft 21⁄2 in). See link for list of track gauges around the world.

That's right. The problem is not the rail gauge, but the width of the TTC subway cars. The "legacy" TTC streetcars ran on exactly same rail gauge as the TTC subways, but they can pass through much narrower tunnels because their bodies are narrow.

Either high-floor LRT, or Mk-III type rolling stock, should make the task of extending this line easier.

 

[rbt]

If they don't win all of Toronto, they will probably lose the election.

Then they lose the election. They didn't win all of Toronto last time; not a chance they do it this time.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Then they lose the election. They didn't win all of Toronto last time; not a chance they do it this time.

They can't lose some of the 416 and some of the 905. And lets be honest, they'll get even less then they did last time.

 

[rbt]

They can't lose some of the 416 and some of the 905. And lets be honest, they'll get even less then they did last time.

I don't disagree. Trouble is, making Scarborough/North York promises will lose more downtown seats to NDP and focusing on downtown will lose outer 416 seats to Conservatives. Making major spending promises for both (DRL + WLRT + Scarborough Subway + Sheppard Subway + RER + ...) will completely tank them everywhere else in the province. Even with a near sweep in the GTA they need a handful of seats in London/Ottawa/KWC/etc.

Adjusting recent polling numbers with a typical Liberal pre-election climb (as a few more GO services get rolled out and Spadina extension opens), I don't see a pattern where Shepard is a Liberal election promise and they win a majority.

 

[Cobra]

I guess people haven't seen this

http://www.torontosun.com/2017/02/11/voters-in-to-split-between-cons-and-liberals

According to the poll, if a provincial election was held today, 35% would vote Conservative while 34% would vote Liberal and 22% would go for the NDP.

A tie in Toronto is very dangerous for the Liberals. The #1 issue in the city is transit so I expect a New "package deal of unfunded projects" from the liberals to make the whole city happy:

• DRL Long (downtown + North York votes)
• Waterfront LRT (Downtown + South Etobicoke votes)
  
• Complete Sheppard East + West (Scarborough + North York votes)
• Crosstown West (Etobicoke votes)

*Scarborough Subway + Crosstown East (funded with original 2-3 stop subway plan)
*Finch West Funded

Sheppard would never get built as a standalone project but as a package deal, it's easier to have it pass. With the Federal government infrastructure program, it's really now or never to push all of the above through. With 50% of all shovel ready projects paid by the Feds, it makes it more affordable for the province to add these projects in their books, especially if the Liberals are in danger.

 

[sixrings]

Ill believe that the Feds are willing to pay 50% when I see the money. Until then it is an election promise waiting to be broken.

 

[Cobra]

Ill believe that the Feds are willing to pay 50% when I see the money. Until then it is an election promise waiting to be broken.

It's shovel ready projects only... Up to the city or/and the province to push everything to shovel ready status to see the money flow.

 

[sixrings]

It's shovel ready projects only... Up to the city or/and the province to push everything to shovel ready status to see the money flow.

I understand the promise. I am just skeptical of the follow through

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

I don't disagree. Trouble is, making Scarborough/North York promises will lose more downtown seats to NDP and focusing on downtown will lose outer 416 seats to Conservatives. Making major spending promises for both (DRL + WLRT + Scarborough Subway + Sheppard Subway + RER + ...) will completely tank them everywhere else in the province. Even with a near sweep in the GTA they need a handful of seats in London/Ottawa/KWC/etc.

Adjusting recent polling numbers with a typical Liberal pre-election climb (as a few more GO services get rolled out and Spadina extension opens), I don't see a pattern where Shepard is a Liberal election promise and they win a majority.

I don't either. I do see where they don't promise it and they lose. At this point they have to make everything stick...

I guess people haven't seen this

http://www.torontosun.com/2017/02/11/voters-in-to-split-between-cons-and-liberals


A tie in Toronto is very dangerous for the Liberals. The #1 issue in the city is transit so I expect a New "package deal of unfunded projects" from the liberals to make the whole city happy:

• DRL Long (downtown + North York votes)
• Waterfront LRT (Downtown + South Etobicoke votes)
  
• Complete Sheppard East + West (Scarborough + North York votes)
• Crosstown West (Etobicoke votes)

*Scarborough Subway + Crosstown East (funded with original 2-3 stop subway plan)
*Finch West Funded

Sheppard would never get built as a standalone project but as a package deal, it's easier to have it pass. With the Federal government infrastructure program, it's really now or never to push all of the above through. With 50% of all shovel ready projects paid by the Feds, it makes it more affordable for the province to add these projects in their books, especially if the Liberals are in danger.

... like this. But Finch West is getting built no matter what.

Also they need to speed up the GO roll out on the 905.

Ill believe that the Feds are willing to pay 50% when I see the money. Until then it is an election promise waiting to be broken.

It's shovel ready projects only... Up to the city or/and the province to push everything to shovel ready status to see the money flow.

I understand the promise. I am just skeptical of the follow through

True, just like election reform.

 

[44 North]

Because I am to please:

As you can see, the subway emerges out of a portal on the southeast side of Highway 404 and immediately has a station at Consumers Rd. About 500 metres east of the station the line bridges over Sheppard Ave to transition towards the next station just east of Victoria Park Ave. The alignment stays on the north side of Sheppard on land currently that's a green space strip, with further stations at Warden and Birchmount. The Kennedy station would provide access to Agincourt Mall. About 200 metres east of the station the line veers southeast into the Highland Creek alignment to have the GO interchange station at the rail junction. The next section descends to at-grade level to travel underneath the 401 in an expanded rail underpass, then elevates again to align with a newly constructed and fortified Midland station. The new subway-ready elevated guideway continues for another kilometre til near Brimley where it descends underground. Scarborough Centre Stn exists in its same location with a St George style interchange between the BD and Sheppard Lines (BD follows the existing SRT corridor at grade, with a revamped Kennedy Station and a tunneled section with a wider curve north of Ellesmere station). This allows for either subway line to extend further towards Malvern in the future if funding permits.

In this proposal I'd consider designing the Ellesmere/SCC section of track so that Line 2 and 4 can share the line. So instead of duplicating infrastructure and spending scarce funds on both elevated and underground, it'd be either one. Two services on one line. It could also be a three track setup with stations designed like Davisville, but considering the demand a two-track setup would probably be fine.

I think elevated subway is just not technically possible.

Tunneled under 404 and then cut-and-cover along Sheppard is possible.
Convert to SkyTrain (or something similar that can handle steeper grades) and then elevated is possible.

I'm not sure about gradient abilities, but I do agree we should transition to some other rolling stock for new subway projects. Even for the RL. Something narrower, and with better turning ability. Bombardier's C20 and C30 used in Stockholm are from the Movia family and could fit the bill. The trains aren't overly narrower being 2.9m, which is wider than the 2.5m used in cities like Vancouver or Montreal, but thinner than ours (3.14m). They also have an added articulation point so can handle turns on par with Line 3. These qualities can pay themselves in perpetuity.

 

[BurlOak]

Ill believe that the Feds are willing to pay 50% when I see the money. Until then it is an election promise waiting to be broken.

If it will help their provincial cousins, the feds may pay their share.
If a Premier of a different stripe asks, then the money will be hard to find.