[BMO]

Second, if speed really did matter so much, why has ridership on many routes that are not subway lines increased by double-digit percentage rates since 2002?

There's no question that it does matter, but not nearly as much as many give it credit for. Convenience and comfort - moreso the former than the latter - have way, way more to do with how well a service will be used in this City. The ridership trends of the past 9 or 10 years show that.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

I think bus route ridership increases can be attributed to many things, least of which is speed. I think what Coruscanti is referrring to, is that if you want to divert or convince people to leave their cars behind, transit must be fast. I wouldn't be surprised if ridership on TTC bus routes has increased due to economic polarization, or other social factors. PPL will often take transit to save on $$, even though it is much less convenient, less fast, and less comfortable. For other people spending double the amount of time on the bus (while it is cheaper), may actually be less economical to them, depending on how much they value their time, and what price they put on it.

 

[vz64]

First off, why are you taking anything that Gordon Chong writes seriously? He was a waste of breath at GO, and it's nice to see things haven't changed much since then.
....

Why not? It is based on KPMG report (around 90% of its content), which provides a number of plausible recommendations regarding possible financial sources of funding Sheppard line. I think the recommendations in the report should be taken seriously: they generalize far beyond extending one subway line and can serve to build a mixed network of subways and LRTs. The biggest obstacle is Ford's unwillingness to compromise and implement those recommendations.

 

[BurlOak]

If they are so set on building this line, then this should either be extended to Agincourt GO or not at all. Going only to Victoria Park is a waste, as the start-up and wind-up costs for this type of construction are exorbitantly high. This one-stop extension is a complete waste of money.

If median LRT is good enough for Eglinton under the DVP and Finch West under the 401, why do we have to tunnel under the 404. Just start the Sheppard East LRT at grade, and in median, from Don Mills and go East to Malvern.

With both the Sheppard subway and Transit City LRT, an awful lot of money is being spent just to tunnel under the 404. If anything, since Sheppard runs over 404, it would be possible to widen the bridge in the future, whereas since Eglinton goes under the DVP and Finch goes under the 400, any road widening in the future is much easier on Sheppard.

 

[BMO]

If median LRT is good enough for Eglinton under the DVP and Finch West under the 401, why do we have to tunnel under the 404. Just start the Sheppard East LRT at grade, and in median, from Don Mills and go East to Malvern.

With both the Sheppard subway and Transit City LRT, an awful lot of money is being spent just to tunnel under the 404. If anything, since Sheppard runs over 404, it would be possible to widen the bridge in the future, whereas since Eglinton goes under the DVP and Finch goes under the 400, any road widening in the future is much easier on Sheppard.

Because the Sheppard LRT would be connecting to the Don Mills subway terminal, which I imagine would mean either the LRT would have to go under the 404 (because tunneling west of the 404 overpass would overshoot the subway station) or just do an above ground connection, forcing the LRT to turn into and out of Fairview mall, causing an already busy bottleneck in traffic to become even worse. Not only for drivers but for LRT passengers as well.

 

[sixrings]

Because the Sheppard LRT would be connecting to the Don Mills subway terminal, which I imagine would mean either the LRT would have to go under the 404 (because tunneling west of the 404 overpass would overshoot the subway station) or just do an above ground connection, forcing the LRT to turn into and out of Fairview mall, causing an already busy bottleneck in traffic to become even worse. Not only for drivers but for LRT passengers as well.

Hypothetically if the lrt was above ground from don mills to vic park what would the savings be???

 

[BMO]

Hypothetically if the lrt was above ground from don mills to vic park what would the savings be???

I don't know, but I imagine that it would save a few hundred million.

 

[rbt]

I don't know, but I imagine that it would save a few hundred million.

Below grade LRT connecting at subway level (same platform, just extended) to just past the 404 was about $400M.

Fully above-grade LRT (no tunnel at all) would be closer to $75M possibly as low as $20M if you keep the Don Mills stop in the middle of the street and don't turn into existing bus station and are willing to run in mixed traffic across the bridge. There is a tunnel running under Sheppard that it might tap into.

 

[BurlOak]

Because the Sheppard LRT would be connecting to the Don Mills subway terminal, which I imagine would mean either the LRT would have to go under the 404 (because tunneling west of the 404 overpass would overshoot the subway station) or just do an above ground connection, forcing the LRT to turn into and out of Fairview mall, causing an already busy bottleneck in traffic to become even worse. Not only for drivers but for LRT passengers as well.

I was thinking of keeping the LRT in the median at (East of) Don Mills with an island platform. A pedestrain stairs/ramp/tunnel could go from the median, under Don Mills down to the subway connection. The savings would probably pay for the Don Mills LRT from Eglinton (the top of the DRL) to here and maybe Seneca too.

 

[sixrings]

Below grade LRT for part of that chunk was about $400M.

Fully above-grade LRT (no tunnel at all) would be closer to $75M possibly as low as $20M if you keep the Don Mills stop in the middle of the street and don't turn into existing bus station and are willing to run in mixed traffic across the bridge. There is a tunnel running under Sheppard.

Donte HATE ME,,,, So you could use that 300m savings to convert the SUBWAY to LRT and have one full line?

 

[scarberiankhatru]

Anyone else greatly amused by the fact that the Chong Report's first figure is a photo-collage about the public health menace of streetcars? I'm sure he asked an assistant, "Can we put a clip of a Hollywood-style spinning newspaper shouting 'STREETCAR KILLS WOMAN' in PDF format? Or should we save that for the council presentation?"

 

[Voltz]

Donte HATE ME,,,, So you could use that 300m savings to convert the SUBWAY to LRT and have one full line?

No, the cost to convert the subway is double that plus there would be no savings since the tunnel to consumers would still need to be built anyway.

 

[BMO]

Donte HATE ME,,,, So you could use that 300m savings to convert the SUBWAY to LRT and have one full line?

I'm one of the biggest subway proponents you'll find, but to be honest, if the LRT on sheppard gets built, converting the line would probably be a better thing, if anything, to reduce a useless transfer between subway and lrt. In the future if the LRT line needs to be buried they can just run it underground like eglinton, even if it is extended West underground to Downsview.

It must be noted though that conversion to LRT probably wouldn't be the best use of funds, considering it would probably cost upwards of what the savings from not tunneling into the transfer point at Don Mills station. a larger number of LRT vehicles would need to be purchased. A larger LRT yard, as well as adjustments to the existing subway tunnels and stations.

Those few hundred million dollars could be better used on Finch or Don Mills etc.

 

[M II A II R II K]

They could perhaps save money by keeping the 3rd rail for the LRT so they don't have to put wires above in the tunnels or even out on the streets.

 

[BMO]

They could perhaps save money by keeping the 3rd rail for the LRT so they don't have to put wires above in the tunnels or even out on the streets.

that's an interesting idea. I am not sure whether such a vehicle exists that allows pantograph on the street, and third rail while in the tunnel.

 

[BurlOak]

I'm one of the biggest subway proponents you'll find, but to be honest, if the LRT on sheppard gets built, converting the line would probably be a better thing, if anything, to reduce a useless transfer between subway and lrt. .

How bad is that transfer? Scarborough (Kennedy) has put up with a similar transfer for 30 years, and with Transit City, the transfer will still be in place, although it will be somewhat improved from what is there now.

Also, a lot more people have to do the Scarborough transfer than the Don Mills one.