[socialwoe]

Malvern doesn't have any feeder bus routes. Beyond Malvern is the park. There are virtually no roads to either the north or the east.

Here we go again! How can there be a feeder route when the commuters are distributed amongst nine bus routes, some with extra branches? 131 and 133 are heavily used. Also look on a map, there's Littles, Sewell, Beare, Meadowvale, Recessor, Twyn Rivers, Finch, Townline, and future Markham Bypass and Moriningside extensions. You're right about that park though, not having developments to stop to in there shaves mins off a Woodlands-Malvern commute.

I don't really think that some of those alrternatives you suggested are better, though.

All I suggested was running the line in a mote or surface til Chesswood GO, follow the wye til Toro Rd and begin a 90 degree diagonal approach, create an overpass for the Finch/Keele intersection (southside Finch exit, northside Keele exit near Four Winds), dip underground through the Hydro corridor til north side of Pioneer Village running alongside Jane to Hwy 7. Again the priority from hell, but whatever!

What is there along Sheppard that's so vital to serve?

-Faster connectivity between NYC and Pearson than Finch
-Will generate greater local use due to greater proximity to
residential/commercial areas
-Reaches Albion Mall in same timeframe as Finch would but...
-Humber College and Brampton Regional Transit Terminal are
reached already
-Connects with two GO stops, Etobicoke North and new
Bethridge Stn and hence Blue 22
-Serves all the development along the Hwy 27 corridor
including Dixon industry/commerce centres, Woodbine
Racetrack/Fantasy Fair, Humber Regional Hosp.,
Woodbridge shuttle, etc.
-Scales back routes 84, 106, 108 and 120 from YUS, bisects
Keele, Jane, Weston, Albion, Islington, Kipling and Martin
Grove routes from BD and creates new separate routes along
400 Industrial corridor serving 000s of workers, even scaling
route 360 from Yorkdale to serve Maple from Oakdale Stn.

Oh. My. You compare yourself to Jesus. Now I think I get it.

Heh, when you're crucified for being benevolent enough to put the welfare of millions of strangers ahead of your own by the mere suggestion that our subway system is ineffective in serving the downtown core, its airport(s), its major attractions or it's inner suburbs that well and something must be done to rectify that, you tend to overempathise with historic figures who were in the same position.

First of all, that website you linked to isn't written by some great authority on Toronto transit. He's just some guy. In fact, he's some guy who supports running a new expressway on the lake. It doesn't state that rapid transit is "planned" all the way to the Zoo. It just says that you're not the only one to have some wacky ideas.

It looked pretty professional to me and he brilliantly poses the question: "If transit was this city's top priority for the past 27 years why there's only 2 friggin lines to show for it and 2 stubs that barely carry 100,000 between them?". And a continuation of Lakeshore east from Woodbine isn't that wacky

...just kiddin'! It does say the Sheppard Line would go to the Zoo, check it out again. I should probably do something like this with well detailed diagrams of of how the most debated points of my plan would actually pan out.

I really can't agree that Morningside is a dense corridor.

It is. And what's wrong ending the line at a university? Didn't Montreal create an entire subway line, through low density sprawl and even underwater exclusively for Sherbrooke? Yeesh even the Quebecois get it, sacre bleu!

That's why Finch West is one of the busiest bus routes in the city and Sheppard West can barely support 20 minute service in rush hour. I just can't understand why someone who's willing to take a Queen line down to Queens Quay

It's busy due to the high number of commuters coming in from Brampton, Humberwood, Humber College, and Albion. By Gracedale the numbers wean down to like 10 people, but if the bus' already full you tend not to notice. The Queens Quay extension, which maybe I shouldn't have ruled out after all, has the advantage of speed, the fact the spacing is spread out means the trains can go like 100 mph, hence from the lakeshore to Queen it would be like hitching a ride on a speeding bullet.

Yeah, I dreamed about running subways along the roof of buildings too. Unfortunately, buildings along these streets are far from uniform in height, and of course the much bigger problem is that you'd have to jam massive wide concrete supports through the buildings to hold up the trains. You can't just run them on an existing roof. If you've ever seen Eglinton between at least Mount Pleasant and Keele, you'd know that it's a very pedestrian friendly and bustling shopping strip.

I hope you're serious and not just pulling a fast one. Utilizing the skyline rather than infinitely expensive tunnel-excavation allows more to be built for less. To clarify I didn't mean literally run along the roof, the guideway would be at least 6-7 feet above the pinnacle of the tallest one from Yonge-Eglinton Centre in front of the Pickle Barrel to about 90 Eglitnon East where a 10-storey blocks it off. By then it eithers veers to the side street (Roehampton) or, and don't laugh cause I don't know if it could be done, have a floor set aside and have the line run through the building itself with noice- and vibration-cancellation devices in place. I'm sure the side alleys in betwix the buildings could accomodate the supports as well. I wouldn't want to try jaywalking on Eglinton, and at Keele coming off a near 90 degree slope is the most dangerous place for walkers of all.

A pair of 25 km lines running from one end of the city to another would be more useful than a 6 km stub. The problem is that 50 km of subway costs a lot more than 6 km.

Not if its done efficiently. You know, a subway reboot. Forget underground, it's time to see the light. Cheaper to build, sooner to begin operation. Scaling back buses from our streets and smog from our skies. Wine, dine, shop, work and play then at the end of the day have the train deliver you to your front door. A subway not prejudiced towards the affluent and priviledeged, no, a subway for everyone! Damn, I should take up motivational speaking.

Rubric? I'm not sure you understood anything I said, since I have no idea where you're getting this express idea. The idea of subways is to get people from where they are to where they want to go.

Oh darn maybe I should've put that on the map too. Yonge Express is inevitable if a Richmond Hill extension is a go someday making YUS a local line instead of serving every node along the corridor and hence giving the Harbourfront and CBD additional service and and way to get from Queen Quay to Steeles within 15 mins.

<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>That's why the CBD would have more subway stations than, say, Rou

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That's I why I put 40 stations on the Queen Line with 17 stops in the core and only 10 stations beyond Markham Rd. Apparently I care more about population density over connect-the-dots than I get credit for.

Whoa...please explain what the Mimico waterfront has to do with single family neighourhoods along Queen. The Queen line (without wild jogs) is not a crazy idea or something.

It means both areas are served by the same line. The Queen Line should've been built in the first place instead of BD but even back in the '50s the torch-yeilding suburbanites monopolized all the power.

would be to turn them into a one-way pair with two traffic and two streetcar lanes...The East Bayfront is a very considerable walk up to Queen.

Permanent streetcar lines for Queen? Dear God no! EB would be reached easily via a new route via River/Sumach/Cherry.

The TTC actually conducted a massive study which demonstrated that Queen is the worst alignment for a new east-west line downtown. Why is your heart so set on Queen?

A street that runs from Scarborough all the way into Mississauga, all the while passing the heart/nucleus/cradle of life of Toronto is the worst alignment? Please forward me a link to that EA study.

You just can't wildly swing subway around the downtown connecting the density dots. You can't have it all. Yes, a Front line would sacrifice the Eaton Centre and some shops along Queen, but it would add Union Station, the ACC, Rogers Centre, Convention Centre, Ex, and all the new waterfront neighbourhoods.

Lol! :rollin
Those places are already within walking distance from Union and GO, all the nodes along Queen get a pish-pash streetcar millstone. Queen without the jogs would be a wildly successful line on its own merit but add the two nodes and not only does it decimate the crackpot notion of a DRL but ridership enters six figures.

You build transit to spots where there is either current or planned development... It is also why subways to wilderness areas where development is prohibited do not make sense.

Those 000s of housing units, planned malls and big box stores along Sheppard East, Meadowvale, Morningside Hts and even at the periphery of Rouge Park (Brookside planned community) are far from wilderness. I never said to scratch one speck of soil of the park, a wye to Pickering Airport through the park, the only development to the park I mentioned, would be via the existing train lines already within the park. If freight trains can run freely through protected parkland without so much as a sneeze from anyone here why can't commuter trains be given the same level of courtesy?

when there are much better locations with better access like the North Yonge, Sheppard, Don Mills, and Waterfront corridors in which to site development.

Hmm, where have heard this before? Oh yeah, they're my priorities too. Maybe if SRT was branched from STC, so that one spur follows McCowan and the other goes you know where, these brainfogs can end.

I wasn't just kidding when I said that you felt all subways should run from one political boundary to another. Nobody has ever, ever suggested building subways to Caledon or Uxbridge.

I was being sarcastic. Suburban subways can come in the future but again I stress south-of-Bloor service is sub-par at best and I don't believe politicians are doing a good job of representing REAL torontonian's issues, otherwise we wouldn't be entering the year 2007 and still have infrequent, transfer ridden, sullen drivers driven, overcrowded buses and streetcars in the core .

The only reason Toronto experiences that phenomenon is our bizarre fare system.

Fares are too high as is to reasonably expect people to ride BOTH the TTC and GO to get around a single city, even if service was frequent. Besides who in the heck thinks Danforth GO and Main St Stn are close enough to make a good transfer point? By the time I walk out to the street level, I'd be nearing SLM on the GO. If they installed a well-lit enclosed conveyor belt lined with retail stores linking 'em maybe I recommend it.

 

[socialwoe]

No it isn't! It's shabby. Too many grubby Jamaicans & stuff. Not enough slick Bremner Boulevard yuppies ...^ Yeah, I don't like walking there because as a pedestrian I have no lockable doors.

Racist much? And this coming from the guy who freaked out over my Asiancourt comment nonetheless. For all your praise of Jane-Finch, you do realize you'll need a XXL-sized lockable door to ride through there if that's your attitude right? Lol!

One minute you say all of the suburban extensions you plan will bring people downtown, then you say suburbanites are already well-served by GO and don't need subways. If you're trying to prioritize our amusement, you've succeeded.

If you're trying to priortize my malevolence, you've succeeded :evil . Centennial GO, a stone's throw away from Markville is well served not to mention with several YRT and VIVA routes too. Cooksville can easily be linked to Sq1 without Bahn-S whatnot just a simplistic LRT up Hurontario. Given the preclevity of strategically located terminuses (Rouge Hill, Malvern gateway, Fairview, Finch, Steeles West, Albion, Humber College, Pearson, Sherway and Long Branch, QQ could be included too if ferrying was seriously considered as an alternative to QEW travel to Hamilton and Niagara) all suburbanities, not just your privileged chums would get downtown a decalouge faster than now.

If one main goal is to reduce transfers, then why doesn't your Sheppard line go to the airport? Why not run from Downsview to Rexdale along Finch to the airport and serve a series of major nodes and destinations in a continuous line requiring no transfers???

Reread how I replied to this the last time. Both lines were intended to go the airport, I changed my mind because the interchange is seamless (think St Geogre ease of transfer), more people live farther south so more people would ride Eglinton into Pearson so why inconvenience them with a transfer and for the lesser number but still feasible passenger volumes coming from York Region, North York and Scarborough
the transfer takes less than a minute and still gets Humber/Albion bound passengers to their destination a hell alot quicker than your Finch jog.

No, I would EXTEND THE SUBWAY TO STC, thus eliminating the transfer. You wouldn't extend the Danforth line until 2075 (but you'd extend the subway to Vaughan by 2045...). Or have your plans become even more enlightened and wonderful since page 6?

Whose daydreaming now? VCC is goin ahead whether we like it or not, STC can barely scramble 40,000 ppd. The fact I gave STC a subway period speaks volumes that I do recognize future projected growth and not just run lines for the sake of running lines. SRT is the most this area will see in a long time because of people like you who believe no one lives in Scarborough are investing the capital elsewhere. Do you realistically believe this subway will get built any sooner in time? My timeline's based on reality, it would take that long for the demand to meet the supply. For the same $ the SRT can stretch on for miles, why waste it on rebuilding a preexisting line just for the sake of riding underground? Do you even know how impossible it'd be to convert the east-west facing Kennedy to align with a north-south line? Unless you plan on building a second station (maybe one that actually exits onto its namesake?) and donate the current one to Eglinton Line don't expect this happening anytime soon.

My philosophy is to massively expand the subway system (extend at all 6 current terminating stations, plus Eglinton and the DRL, plus all-day service on GO lines), and to do this immediately, not by 2090. I'd add ~100km of subways, and, unlike your plan, the lines wouldn't run through Utopia.

Why did you even bother responding to this? You're just exemplifying my point with that STUPIFIED statement. Gee, lets all go jump into the magical space-time continum dream machine of Prof. Wizard Dumbassbore and 'will' the existence of all those extensions "immediately" overnight! Oh yeah that kind of thing only happens in Utopia. 2090 is the most realistic number I could think of within reason that all those subways could be built, and if you read the timeline again you'll clearly see by 2030 or 23 years from now everything you've listed is either completed or has begun with even operational portions.

Yes, an elevated train will do that.

Gee even spelling errors aren't safe from criticism. But on the other hand if creative marketing strategies convince more people to ride transit and hence substantiate my extensions to Malvern and Port Union, I guess the "Pedestrain- these trains were made for walkers!" ain't that bad a slogan to adopt.

Losing faith in them was impossible because I had none to begin with.

Ditto on your McCowan-Markville, Bathurst-Steeles, STC only via industrial slums Sheppard line neglecting two-thirds of Sheppard East in Scarborough, DRL, Warden-Finch (I'll never get this one ever, ever), Jane-Finch, Pape-Thorncliffe Park extravaganzas with more jogs than the human body can withstand far beyond the relatively minor Chinatown loop and anything else that doesn't follow the street grids of the 4 most suitable east-west transit corridors serving downtown, midtown, uptown and out of town (NY).

And certainly more reasonable than extending the subway to Malvern. If the Sheppard or BD line ran to UTSC, it would dramatically reduce travel time on the Neilson bus (the busiest Malvern bus). If the BD line ran up McCowan, every person in Malvern would be within a 10min bus ride of a subway station leaving the subways themselves to be run through more suitable areas (McCowan is denser while SE Scarborough has much more feeder bus potential).

This is a joke in the making, and you can't apply this logic to suburban routes and density cores? Neilson is within 10 mins of McCowan (on Planet Crouton perhaps) but Finchers are too lazy to ride down 5 mins to Sheppard? Coming in from downtown, the Eglinton Line would get people to UTSC alot faster than via STC and the 133 which loops into Centenary Hosp. grounds would actually interface with West Hill Stn via the shuttle I explained about earlier.

An Eglinton line may only run to Kingston initially but could be supported to Morningside & Lawrence in the future. If German-style GO train service doesn't pan out as expected, maybe someone will propose a really wild light rail line that goes from Kingston in the SE, to UTSC, to Malvern, then along Finch/hydro corridor...the same could be built from York/Downsview along Finch to Humber/Woodbine and the airport. We should ask socialwoe what the future will hold since he's sure the Rouge Park/Pickering airport sector of the GTA will be the scene of fantastic developments all warranting subways.

So let me get this straight, Kingston/Eglinton, literally a parkland, get's an end route from you but the Zoo which actually would see a high passenger draw despite your pessimism wouldn't? How much contradiction can one man display on one subject discussion? And you admit Morningside-West Hill/UTSC/Malvern/Morningside Hts can support rapid transit and yet you spend your time here harassing me cause you're peeved I beat you to the punch telling eveyrone how much potential East Scarborough has?

Don't let me have to tell you again that as vacant lands become scarce in the GTA (Look what happened in Caledonia, ON and we haven't even begun to experience a new wave baby boom/immigration fallout yet) people may resort to squatting in the park just to have a refuge. And even if that never happens as long as there's 75,000 Malvernites, 000s more in MH, Sheppard East, Brookside, whatever new developments/housing schemes pop up north of the park in Markham/Uxbridge and all those zoophiles, the relatively small leap from McCowan/Ellesmere to Neilson/McLevin and beyond via Bellamy (sizable concentration of industries), Markham (lots of apts, residents, more benefit to route 95ers than current SRT layout), Progress (Centennial no brainer), Milner (Milner Business Ct, industries, new Burrows Hall housing, 401 gateway) and of course Sheppard East (better to your Markvillians than you think) is of no drain to the system.

Wouldn't they be called 'superways' in that context? Perhaps 'surways' would also be right...socialwoe is the linguist here, so I'll let him decide.

Skytrains has a nice ring to it! I've actually been using the acronyms QUEST (QUeen-Eglinton-Sheppard Transit) and more recently MUSHY BEDS (Mississuaga-University-Spadina-Highway 7-Yonge Bloordanforth-Eglinton-Downtown-Sheppard) for my system maps. SkyQUEST trains on the MUSHY and BEDS lines, that'll spark conversation for sure!

 

[spmarshall]

Anyone remember the 194 Zoo Rocket? It lasted, what, 2 seasons? I thought there would be a market for a seasonal express service from STC, but there certainly wasn't. I can't imagine the length of time it would take to get out there via the 85 from Don Mills or the 86 from Kennedy.

 

[ahrvojic]

The Queen Line should've been built in the first place instead of BD but even back in the '50s the torch-yeilding suburbanites monopolized all the power.

The B-D has more than proven itself for 40 years now and this obsession with Queen and its calculated demise at the hands of suburbanites is sheer insanity. Wow. Just wow.

A street that runs from Scarborough all the way into Mississauga, all the while passing the heart/nucleus/cradle of life of Toronto is the worst alignment? Please forward me a link to that EA study.

From Scarborough but not from within it. And not exactly a natural terminus/hub location either.

Also, Mississauga's stretch of the Queensway would be an absolutely horrible route for a subway line. Your claim of "nothing" between Sherway and Hurontario would actually seem reasonable.

Suburban subways can come in the future but again I stress south-of-Bloor service is sub-par at best and I don't believe politicians are doing a good job of representing REAL torontonian's issues,

So REAL Torontonians are defined only by living south of Bloor? I guess millions of rank suburbanites have been in denial for a very long time and, as a Mississaugan, I must be just barely above serfdom.

 

[adma]

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
No it isn't! It's shabby. Too many grubby Jamaicans & stuff. Not enough slick Bremner Boulevard yuppies ...^ Yeah, I don't like walking there because as a pedestrian I have no lockable doors.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Racist much? And this coming from the guy who freaked out over my Asiancourt comment nonetheless. For all your praise of Jane-Finch, you do realize you'll need a XXL-sized lockable door to ride through there if that's your attitude right? Lol!

Poor sense of irony/sarcasm, indeed...

the torch-yeilding suburbanites

Malapropism of the year.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

the fact the spacing is spread out means the trains can go like 100 mph

Even around 90° turns?

Damn, I should take up motivational speaking.

all suburbanities, not just your privileged chums would get downtown a decalouge faster than now.

Decalogue, huh? You're a visionary, a veritable Kieslowski.

Whose daydreaming now? VCC is goin ahead whether we like it or not, STC can barely scramble 40,000 ppd

If by going ahead you mean getting built in 39 years. The SRT already has a ridership of over 40,000 per day. It loses thousands of rides per day because people take alternate routes. Apparently there's massive, Moreno Valley type growth occurring in Malvern and beyond - won't any of these people take it? If not, then why should it be extended?

Coming in from downtown, the Eglinton Line would get people to UTSC alot faster than via STC and the 133 which loops into Centenary Hosp. grounds would actually interface with West Hill Stn via the shuttle I explained about earlier.

The hospital is effectively irrelevent - a single crescent full of townhouses would generate more trips. And most UTSC'ers don't live downtown...maybe a few hundred people.

Kingston/Eglinton, literally a parkland, get's an end route from you

Does this look like parkland to you?
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=...ll=43.741724,-79.215631&spn=0.011162,0.026994

but the Zoo which actually would see a high passenger draw despite your pessimism wouldn't? How much contradiction can one man display on one subject discussion?

Look:
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=...1,-79.177608&spn=0.044583,0.107975&iwloc=addr

as long as there's 75,000 Malvernites, 000s more in MH, Sheppard East, Brookside,

The 75,000 in Malvern includes Morningside Heights, 'Brookside', etc. 75,000 is the whole ward. As for the Zoo, I've already told you that if attendance triples and every single person takes the subway there, that's still barely 20,000 rides a day, and it's zero when the Zoo is closed. Remember, that's tripled attendance and a transit usage of 100%...

Don't let me have to tell you again that as vacant lands become scarce in the GTA people may resort to squatting in the park just to have a refuge.

That's just moronic, even coming from you.

I thought there would be a market for a seasonal express service from STC, but there certainly wasn't.

Who wants to drag their kids around the city on buses and subways for 3+ hours so that they can drag them around the Zoo for another 6? Millions of people need to travel quite a distance just to get to Don Mills or Kennedy to start with - the reason no one has ever serisouly proposed building transit to the Zoo is because it's a long way out and no one would take it. We used to take the bus to the Zoo all the time, it took 3 buses, actually, and it wasn't that bad since we're only a few miles away from the Zoo. It's not at all the kind of attraction where you pop in with the kids for an hour - you make a day of it or you don't go.

 

[M II A II R II K]

 

[Brighter Hell]

Racist much? And this coming from the guy who freaked out over my Asiancourt comment nonetheless. For all your praise of Jane-Finch, you do realize you'll need a XXL-sized lockable door to ride through there if that's your attitude right? Lol!

*Whoosh!!*

 

[unimaginative2]

A street that runs from Scarborough all the way into Mississauga, all the while passing the heart/nucleus/cradle of life of Toronto is the worst alignment? Please forward me a link to that EA study.

Some of us have done a little more research than cursory glances at maps and Google searches. Try going to a library and finding the Downtown Rapid Transit study. It's three volumes. Volume two is the most useful.

What does running from Scarborough to Mississauga have anything to do with it? We're talking about the alignment through downtown, where Front (or Wellington) is demonstrably superior.

Those places are already within walking distance from Union and GO, all the nodes along Queen get a pish-pash streetcar millstone. Queen without the jogs would be a wildly successful line on its own merit but add the two nodes and not only does it decimate the crackpot notion of a DRL but ridership enters six figures.

So...a route that has been studied extensively by the TTC and recommended as a priority project is crackpot, while a route that turns at a right angle south to Queens Quay from Queen, then up to Dundas, then back down to Queen is sensible? Hmm...

Anyway, the whole point isn't to have one subway stop close to those major trip generators which I enumerated. The idea is to serve people going to and coming from them. A Downtown Relief Line would do that quite effectively.

It is. And what's wrong ending the line at a university? Didn't Montreal create an entire subway line, through low density sprawl and even underwater exclusively for Sherbrooke? Yeesh even the Quebecois get it, sacre bleu!

Wow...Our self-proclaimed Messiah really has no idea what he's talking about. I assume you're referring to the Yellow line to Longueuil (nowhere near Sherbrooke - look at a map before you post - though close to the University of Sherbrook) which runs from the heart of downtown Montreal, directly under the river to Parc Jean Drapeau which housed the massive Expo complex, and from there under some more river to massive bus terminal on the Rive Sud where there are another half-million people right there.

 

[ahrvojic]

^ There's also a seemingly popular shuttle bus connection at Parc Jean Drapeau to the Montreal's huge casino.

 

[socialwoe]

Anyone remember the 194 Zoo Rocket? It lasted, what, 2 seasons? I thought there would be a market for a seasonal express service from STC, but there certainly wasn't. I can't imagine the length of time it would take to get out there via the 85 from Don Mills or the 86 from Kennedy.

Another failed attempt to discredit me I see. Alone the Zoo isn't a major passenger draw I admit but combined with surrounding nodes it's worth a stop. Besides for the umpteenth time my extension would not be a traditional subway, SRT is what I'd implement and it'd do no worse than the half empty intermittant stops of the current system. If a subway upgrade in the futrure, if warranted, were done; stops would be slashed in half and be in its own ROW northeast of the Markham/Sheppard intersection. Even I never took the Zoo extension that seriously until Scarberian left me with no choice but to when he failed to see how a few kms to Markham Rd wouldn't harm anyone riding either BD or Sheppard since STC's relevance/appeal today is 90% its transit hub status which will dissipate the second additional terminals pop up closer to commuters homes.

The B-D has more than proven itself for 40 years now and this obsession with Queen and its calculated demise at the hands of suburbanites is sheer insanity. Wow. Just wow.

I'll let the facts speak for themselves on this one.

"This proposal was submitted to Toronto ratepayers for a vote on January 1, 1946 and approved by a wide margin. The proposal was conditional on a 20% subsidy of costs by the federal government, but a subsidy deal fell through when Ottawa and the province of Ontario could not agree on the details for a post-war employment program. Toronto and the TTC responded to this by scaling back the subway project, temporarily shelving the Queen line and focusing on the Yonge line instead. Construction began on the Yonge subway in 1949 with a streetcar-subway station roughed in beneath Queen station on the Yonge line. After the Yonge subway opened in 1954, attention turned to the east-west line, but things had changed since 1946.
For one thing, streetcars had fallen out of favour as a rapid transit medium, and the City of Toronto’s plans for a Queen subway now called for heavy-rail equipment to be used. For another, the TTC was having second thoughts about locating the cross-town line along Queen.

Politically, the City of Toronto wanted a subway on Queen Street. Queen was the main east-west street running through the downtown, and on that basis the east-west subway had to go there.
Until the 1940s, the city had been developing along major streetcar routes, producing the upside-down “T†pattern of development. When the Second World War ended, this changed. The automobile enabled the growth of low-density developments far from the streetcar lines. The upside-down “T†disappeared (although Toronto’s city limits did not change) as Toronto sprawled east, west and north into the townships of Etobicoke, North York and Scarborough. For Etobicoke residents, both Bloor and Queen Streets (the latter accessed via Lakeshore Boulevard and, after 1958, the Queensway) were major thoroughfares connecting commuters to downtown Toronto. The Gardiner Expressway, opened in 1957, continued this pull of commuters to the south of Bloor Street.

To the east, however, the shoreline of Lake Ontario angled northeast, cutting Queen Street off from any eastward expansion. Kingston Road, paralleling the shoreline, channelled eastern commuters west for most of the century,
So, the TTC felt it had no choice but to build the cross-town subway along the Bloor-Danforth corridor. But this change in plan was controversial. The City of Toronto, backed by the towns of Long Branch, New Toronto and Mimico, continued to push for a Queen subway. At one point, the city proposed a ‘flying U’ compromise,
Eventually the TTC proposal won out. Although I have not been able to find out how the TTC convinced the City of Toronto to accept its proposal, I speculate that the fact that the TTC was still financially independent helped.

Proponents of Spadina criticized the Queen subway for providing rapid transit to an area that was already effectively served by the Bloor subway. Spadina, these supporters argued, brought rapid transit closer to underserviced north-western Metro. Proponents of the Queen line criticized that the Spadina line was unlikely to attract as many riders, separated from stores, offices and apartments by expressway lanes on either side.

The issue was settled after 1967. In that year, the Ontario government completed a review of Metropolitan Toronto and ordered that it be restructured. The thirteen member municipalities were consolidated down to six, with Long Branch, Mimico and New Toronto merging into Etobicoke, Weston merging into York, Leaside merging into East York and Swansea and Forest Hill merging into Toronto.

The restructuring also redistributed Metro Council seats to each member municipality according to their percentage of population within Metro. The suburban municipalities had grown considerably since 1954, such that their combined populations were larger than that of the City of Toronto. As a result, the suburban municipalities received a majority of Metro Council seats. The Spadina subway was quickly chosen as the TTC’s next priority for subway construction. The Queen line was left to languish. Queen remained on the books as the priority that would follow after Spadina’s opening. In the late 1960s, an opening date for Queen was set at 1980, at which time the remainder of Toronto’s streetcar network would be abandoned."

Courtesy: transit.toronto.on.ca/subway/5104.shtml

See the then-suburbs Scarborough/York/East York/North York f*cked Toronto's chances for a downtown line!

From Scarborough but not from within it. And not exactly a natural terminus/hub location either.

If the line stopped at Fallingbrook yes but veering to the very dense Kingston corridor and running into the commercial Cliffside neighbourhood or possibly even to Kennedy station thereby linking all inter-Toronto GO stations except Old Cummer with the subway system, plenty of natural hubs are reached.

Also, Mississauga's stretch of the Queensway would be an absolutely horrible route for a subway line. Your claim of "nothing" between Sherway and Hurontario would actually seem reasonable.

And rightfully so, but the subway out to Sherway Gardens is important and vital and even without the Queen Line is the easiest expansion to undergo, taking virtually little $ to accomplish.

So REAL Torontonians are defined only by living south of Bloor? I guess millions of rank suburbanites have been in denial for a very long time and, as a Mississaugan, I must be just barely above serfdom.

If situations were different, Queen and Eglinton had been built originally instead of Bloor and Sheppard and the proposal was now to extend into Mississauga, I'd wholeheartedly advocate a Peel line. But as is I can't prioritize your city ahead of mine when myself and hundreds of 000s of people can't get around the core effectively, I just can't, it's that simple. It's not an anti-suburb mentality, it's a pro-GTA mentality since a bulk of you said suburbanites thrive on the core for work, shopping, leisure, etc. and I can't imagine you'd selfishly detract from even your own accessibility just to weasle your town/district onto a system map.

 

[socialwoe]

If by going ahead you mean getting built in 39 years. The SRT already has a ridership of over 40,000 per day... won't any of these people take it? If not, then why should it be extended?

Scarberian its not that I don't want the STC subway extension, I just think if the concensus of Scarborough residents want the SRT as is only rennovated, new add-in stop and extension northeast (ha,ha! No matter what you say to irk me, looks like Malvern's a go!) we should acknowledge that and move on. Since you overlooked my concern that its a mechanical improbability to modify the existing end-route to accomodate a north-south wye, you may as well revise my timeline and see its Eglinton East that'd get the subway first.

The hospital is effectively irrelevent - a single crescent full of townhouses would generate more trips. And most UTSC'ers don't live downtown...maybe a few hundred people.

What was I saying about inclusion not exclusion again? Alot of 133ers would take the Eglinton Line, which just goes to show you the Malvern/Centenary community is numerous. Instiuitions (hospitals, colleges and universities) are important links/ transit hubs as well and many students go and back and forth between UTSC and St Geogre not to mention other colleges.

Does this look like parkland to you? The 75,000 in Malvern includes Morningside Heights, 'Brookside', etc. 75,000 is the whole ward.

Those two aerials you posted are ridiculous! You value 'modern' subway building so much yet put two stations in relatively the same area (Markham alone would suffice). I told you stopping in front of the Guild Inn (there's an actual parkette there you know, I wasn't wrong) is pointless. Add SGC, Guildwood, Galloway, Morningside, West Hill and UTSC (Morrish naturally cut off from Lawson by Hwy 2 seems like an idyllic place to end, even if it'd be a white elephant- especially if you scuff my Zoo extension and the 86ers need a link) and you'd get no further complaints from me about east vs. west disparagement and even Durham Region via Hwy 2 would have that quick GO alternative you thought could never exist this far east.

As for Rouge Park thanks for furthering my belief that that park is a goner. Here I was thinking the whole thing was forested and you go and and show me cleared pastures, well defined, paved roads even what appears to be a few isolated houses. Again thank you very much ! And if Malvern's a done deal why are there new housing schemes going up everyday? Will these perpetually add-in to your 75,000 til infinity?

STOP KICKING UP THIS THREAD

I take it you haven't made that map yet? You are a douchebag with nothing to say and that empty statement speaks worlds more than your worthless input.

Some of us have done a little more research than cursory glances at maps and Google searches. Try going to a library and finding the Downtown Rapid Transit study. It's three volumes. Volume two is the most useful... What does running from Scarborough to Mississauga have anything to do with it? We're talking about the alignment through downtown, where Front (or Wellington) is demonstrably superior...So...a route that has been studied extensively by the TTC and recommended as a priority project is crackpot, while a route that turns at a right angle south to Queens Quay from Queen, then up to Dundas, then back down to Queen is sensible? Hmm...

Dude, all I asked for was a pdf link on this study, politely:\ . If Google had it I obviously wouldn't be bothering you. I explained in the last post why Queen was canned, now for Chapter Two: The Enlightenment!

"So if density is a prime consideration, why has no-one, and I mean NO-ONE, looked at the fact that we have two north-south lines, but only one east-west line (notwithstanding the short Sheppard line); that we have such crowded streetcars along Queen and King that it's standard to wait and wait and wait as one crowded car after another passes, until finally 3 show up in a row and one can get on the last one; that the speed of these cars makes molasses look fast due to the narrowness and congestion of these arterial roads; and that lots of people work and live all along these streets.

Thanks to James Bow, I now know that the TTC recommends subways are viable where density is 100 people or jobs per hectare or higher. According to their very own map, the density in 1996 along Queen Street ranges from 250 person and jobs per hectare between what looks like Spadina and Bay to over 100 from Coxwell in the east to Keele in the west. In other words, from Coxwell to Keele, Queen Street meets their viability requirement to build a subway. This is a longer stretch than on Yonge Street, which has the most crowded line on the system. It encompasses 19 stops along the Bloor-Danforth line, which has a slightly longer but less consistent high density pattern as Queen, probably partly because of the existence of the subway for the past 40 years. Queen is also as far south as one can go and still reach the two far east-west ends of the city.

Nowhere else in Toronto is the density this high, not going towards York U, not along the Scarborough RT, not along Sheppard, nor even along the horrendously crowded Eglinton West bus corridor. And so why, given that the biggest criticism of subway expansion is lack of density, has no-one come out and said a subway is needed here to relive the congestion in this high-density corridor, to relieve the congestion on the Bloor-Danforth line since so many go up to it to speed across Toronto instead of crawling along it on the Queen car, to make taking down of the Gardiner feasible so that all the east-end residents will have an alternative high-speed way to get from east Toronto to downtown or the west end? Why? For the same reason as Miller thinks buses will relieve congestion, even though in no other city of comparable size have they done that. Because we Torontonians have learned helplessness and are too afraid to ask for what we need.

When we only ask for what we think we can get, we will never get what we need...We need subways."

Courtesy of: pario.blogspot.com/2006/1...r-ttc.html

I couldn't have put it better myself! Obviously the TTC has its own agendas, different from City of Toronto's and the powerless millions who use it daily, so I wouldn't put as much faith as you apparently have in their studies. And you can't say in one breath the goal's to connect to connect the suburbs, then in the next "What does running to Mississauga have to do with it?" A road that not only does that but covers the bulk of existing no. of users (not projected condo/townhouse owners who'll own cars any friggin' way) as well is past due its own subway but as the poet wrote: When we only ask for what we think we can get, we will never get what we need...We need subways And again addition of the jogs gets of the pros of BOTH DRL and Queen without the cons of sacrificing one, most likely the better option, cause there'll never be enough $ to finance both.

Wow...Our self-proclaimed Messiah really has no idea what he's talking about. I assume you're referring to the Yellow line to Longueuil (nowhere near Sherbrooke - look at a map before you post - though close to the University of Sherbrook)

What kind of idiot would mistake the City of Sherbrooke for the Univ. of Sherbrooke in a repsonse pretaining to ending routes at an university campus? Gee, your armchair psychology of Woe's state of mind reveals more about your biases than his!

 

[scarberiankhatru]

What kind of idiot would mistake the City of Sherbrooke for the Univ. of Sherbrooke in a repsonse pretaining to ending routes at an university campus?

The kind of idiot that thinks the Rouge Park will be developed?

The kind that thinks the Morningside Heights population isn't already included in the future population of Malvern = 75,000 figure?

The kind that thinks the Zoo is surrounded by major nodes like Uxbridge and the Pickering airport?

The kind that thinks Scarborough residents don't want an extension of the Danforth line because they love the RT so much?

The kind that thinks since all said Danforth extensions must run in the RT's current corridor, extending the line is a "mechanical improbability"?

The kind that thinks Centenary hospital and U of Ters travelling between UTSC and St. George combine with all kinds of major Morningside and Lawson nodes to form enough riders to warrant a subway extension?

The kind that thinks he's the only one here who knows anything about transit history and proper routing, and attempts to prove it by quoting random websites (some of which were written by members of this forum)?

The kind whose stubborn idiocy is providing us all with unlimited amusement?

 

[spmarshall]

Another failed attempt to discredit me I see. Alone the Zoo isn't a major passenger draw I admit but combined with surrounding nodes it's worth a stop.

I wasn't trying to discredit you, but I sure feel like it now. What surrounding nodes for the zoo? The Beare Road landfill site? Even Malvern Town Centre (which does not need a subway, but does need better surface transit - ie a Malvern Rocket to STC or to the subway) is quite far away.

What kind of idiot would mistake the City of Sherbrooke for the Univ. of Sherbrooke in a repsonse pretaining to ending routes at an university campus?

Here's a question for you: What came first? Longueuil Station, or Université de Sherbrooke Longueuil Campus?

Remember from 1966 to 2003, the Metro station was merely called Longueuil. The Longueuil Campus has 8000 students, or close to the size of Erindale College in Mississauga. Most of the ridership comes from the fact that a shitload of buses (RTL, various CITs on the south shore) feed into this station, which is helped due to the fact that the south shore is separated from Montreal by a river, so the commuters have to be funnelled in at one point. The station is the STM's fifth busiest.

 

[socialwoe]

The kind of idiot that thinks the Rouge Park will be developed?

Nope, the kind of idiot who contradicts himself by posting a map of what should've looked like Agonquin and instead resembled the Prairies. Only the riverbanks had heavy growth and obviously development can't happen there. Most of Rouge Park that's untouchable lies far to the southeast of Malvern, nowhere near the Zoo. Even on that map you posted, to make an idiot out of me but rather disgraced yourself, you can clearly see the leap from Littles Rd to Zoo property (is that gov't land too?) is 500m at most. That's all we're disputing here folks, 500 lousy metres!

The kind that thinks the Morningside Heights population isn't already included in the future population of Malvern = 75,000 figure?

So even 1000 years from now only 75,000 people will live there? And regardless if even half of these people (37,500) rode transit to STC we're talking a serious reduction to their travel time to get the line out to Malvern Town Centre (I'll concede the Zoo if that'll shut you up for good).

The kind that thinks the Zoo is surrounded by major nodes like Uxbridge and the Pickering airport?

I didn't come up with the Pickering Airport proposal you know. Where do you suggest they route a rapid transit connection between it and Toronto, hmm? And Uxbridge next-door to the airport site would receive similar benefit when populations as I've predicted will increase there warranting expansion. The nodes I was referring to however was Centennial College, Malvern, Morningside Hts and the new developments along Sheppard East so I suppose I should thank you for thinking two steps ahead for once.

The kind that thinks Scarborough residents don't want an extension of the Danforth line because they love the RT so much?

I'd provide links to prove this, but obviously even facts can't penetrate that cast-iron skull of yours. The MPPs/City Councillors from all Scarbourogh Wards came together and voted this way in light of the realization they couldn't defeat Sorbara, would further prolong any expansion from commencing anywhere in the city if they mutinied, would stop any rapid transit connection to STC for about a decade (remember SRT conks out in 8 yrs, it'll take that long for just additional funding and EA studies to be available), would detract 4 RT stations and render a whole history/technology useless, be ineffective to the majority of STC, only covers already reached terriority i.e. of no benefit to current unreached nodes/communities and the list goes on.

The kind that thinks since all said Danforth extensions must run in the RT's current corridor, extending the line is a "mechanical improbability"?

Actually my concerns were for the new alignment via Brimley/Lawrence which requires a complicated modification under Lord Roberts Drive to get the line into the Hydro Corridor. Of course that doesn't begin to address the numerous land expropiation it'd require and billions in tunneling. And in the end for a maximum 8000 pph. So my idea to relocate the SRT to the mezzanine level of Kennedy (the current terminal can act as a second bus terminal a la Wilson for minor routes like 20, 12B, 113) makes the transfer seamless and more importantly forces officials to jump start Eglinton corridor transit (if we wait for it to extend east from Allen Rd it'll never happen, at least this shaves 5 mins off East Scarberian's -no pun intended- commutes).

The kind that thinks Centenary hospital and U of Ters travelling between UTSC and St. George combine with all kinds of major Morningside and Lawson nodes to form enough riders to warrant a subway extension?

Why can't at least one line run from border to border? Front to Steeles and beyond is okay but the shear mention of rectifying the fact Kipling's 3kms from Peel yet Kennedy's like 15kms from Durham and you're ready to burn me alive! Yes Morningside corridor is the easternmost node that'd generate at least 50,000 ppd, more if you add-in trippers from Durham via Hwy 2 and GO commuters that interchange at Rouge Hill (if Lord 'Ber'an allots), Guildwood and Bellamy. The whole area is lined by condos and high-rise apts as far as Ellesmere and with the draw of 2 campuses and a hospital so close by ridership is overty guranteed way past your 'single cresent of townhouses'! Again Lawson is a far off extension, I even envisioned tail tracks to the south of Scarborough Campus to allow quick turnaround when ridership eastward dwindles.

The kind that thinks he's the only one here who knows anything about transit history and proper routing, and attempts to prove it by quoting random websites (some of which were written by members of this forum)?

I wouldn't have to resort to quoting random websites if you hadn't ridiculed my opinions and made it appear that I was the only person who felt the way I do about transit. Furthermore if these sites were written by some of you how come it seems like I'm the only one here who supports the Queen Line or knew of its importance and history? The DRL is the politicians way of cost-cutting with our taxes through an open ditch under the false guise that anyone north of Front will benefit from it, all the while Queen's still stuck with inferal bloody streetcars!

Problem is you've all fallen for it and choose to heckle the one individual (or Fountainhead as you put it) whose trying to understand how we can settle for mediocrity when the vacant car lots at Edgeley are prioritized for new subways first. The fact Queen hasn't been built by now just reiterates the level of apathy displayed by Torontonians who don't give a shit that they can't even get around their own downtownn effectively, and amongst a group of so-called transit enthusiasts nonetheless. Why do I even bother! Oh yeah I thought I was discoursing with someone other than the missing link left in a windswept whatchamacallit who's oblivious to his own stubborn idiocy and is providing me with unlimited amusement :rollin .

Even Malvern Town Centre (which does not need a subway, but does need better surface transit - ie a Malvern Rocket to STC or to the subway) is quite far away.

This Malvern Rocket route you describe could follow my alignment for Malvern- BRT or LRT through the CN channel, Old Finch, Meadowvale then back along Sheppard to the Sheppard East subway station. I'd be willing to give up my outer-loop theory if more of you understood the value of the Sheppard-Markham looping and how minimalist an effect it'd have on reaching the STC quickly.

Here's a question for you: What came first?

It doesn't matter! Montreal's obviously done a better job than
us in creating a "campus town" mentality for the millions of students who use its subways each year. Even with the York U line, several campuses including UTSC get the short stick, when it's obvious if you're going to run an Eglinton Line into East Scarborough it should head to the largest passenser draw/transit hub in the area which is Morningside Mall/West Hill/UTSC/Highland Creek (95a,e; 116a,e;38 + 54, 86, new routes).