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So even 1000 years from now only 75,000 people will live there?

Maybe less than that. One thing or sure is that no one will be living in the Rouge Park in 1000 years...the "Prairies" you "see" in the satellite photo are about 12 grandfathered rural farms/estates that will slowly be absorbed into the park as the province is able to acquire them.

I'd provide links to prove this, but obviously even facts can't penetrate that cast-iron skull of yours. The MPPs/City Councillors from all Scarbourogh Wards came together and voted this way in light of the realization they couldn't defeat Sambora, would further prolong any expansion from commencing anywhere in the city if they mutinied, would stop any rapid transit connection to STC for about a decade (remember SRT conks out in 8 yrs, it'll take that long for just additional funding and EA studies to be available), would detract 4 RT stations and render a whole history/technology useless, be ineffective to the majority of STC, only covers already reached terriority i.e. of no benefit to current unreached nodes/communities and the list goes on.

1. Please stop calling him Sambora - it makes you look really stupid and drags your argument down from dismissable to laughable. His name is Sorbara.
2. Even the TTC concluded that public preference for a subway to STC was high while all other transit mode options was low...if you had participated in all of the public meetings and presentations as I had, you'd know this and wouldn't appear so misinformed and so blatantly wrong. If Steve Munro or your cousin in Philly or some other random blog says otherwise, they're wrong.
3. I don't know what the Scarborough councillors were promised or threatened with to keel over on the subway expansion issue, but their reversal was a stunning blow to the future of transit in the east end and probably means the end of subway construction in this city for at least a generation, i.e., after Spadina is done, we won't be riding a single kilometre of new subway lines until 2050 or later. You're using that fact to "try" to discredit my argument yet you fail to notice that it also completely undermines your massive subway expansion plans. You're the one that started this whole thread and posted the wild fantasy map, so why bash traditional subway technology where it's clearly needed and supported?
4. "Detract 4 RT stations" - you're the one that claimed on page 4 that Ellesmere and Midland are worthless because they're among the least-used stations on the system. The "loss of stations/service" is a red herring thrown in by streetcar and light rail fanatics to derail (pun intended) the groundswell of support for a subway expansion. And only 3 stations will be removed, since the Lawrence East station will be shifted east to Midland, Brimley, or McCowan...again, if you were at all familiar with transit in Scarborough other than what you've read in a couple of outrageously biased TTC reports (or even worse/more likely, the rehashing of said reports on said blogs), you'd know that.
5. Why shouldn't a useless orphaned technology be axed when we have the chance? We didn't want it, it was foisted upon us by the same forces that took the subway off the table - Soberman and the province.
6. How is a subway ineffective to the majority of STC? No, really, tell me.
7. The subway would benefit travellers coming in from all corners of Scarborough because it would remove the transfer at Kennedy, saving people up to 10 minutes. Minor bus route rejiggings could save people another 10 minutes. The "web of streetcars" that de Baeremaeker was salivating at the prospect of may never happen...the funds are certainly not lying around waiting to be spent. Instead, a small fortune will be spent on relocating the damned RT to the mezzanine ("your" idea, heh), saving commuters less than 30 seconds each trip. The act of switching trains and waiting for a new one to arrive, load, and leave, is what eats up the most time, not the physical act of walking from one platform to another.

Actually my concerns were for the new alignment via Brimley/Lawrence which requires a complicated modification under Lord Roberts Drive to get the line into the Hydro Corridor.

The Brimley/Lawrence alignment wouldn't run through the hydro corridor and it would be tunneled its entire length - no expropriations necessary. The curve under Lord Roberts is not at all complicated, it's just a curve north.
 
Why can't at least one line run from border to border? Front to Steeles and beyond is okay but the shear mention of rectifying the fact Kipling's 3kms from Peel yet Kennedy's like 15kms from Durham and you're ready to burn me alive!

Who cares how far the subway's ends are to two arbitrary lines drawn over farmland decades ago! Toronto does not begin and end at its municipal borders and modern cities in general are highly complex, adaptive, and organically-growing systems that can't be contained within some artificial, normalized box and measured in their totality.

Treating Durham and Peel as equal boundaries simply because they're both regional municipalities that border Toronto is beyond ridiculous. In 2001, Peel had double the population and quadruple the population density of Durham! People and development are far from evenly spread from one end of the city to the other, nevermind geographical constraints, so the subway terminus distance argument is nonsense. Just because some neighbourhood lies in the 416, or in Scarborough, or south of some street, etc. doesn't automatically mean it merits a subway.
 
I was trying to think up what to me would be "perfect" for the Toronto subway system given a good amount, but not impossible, amount of funds. In my mind, all that's needed is extending the Sheppard line from Downsview to Scarborough Town Centre, and the Danforth Line to the same place, and the Bloor line to Sherway, and the Spadina line to York University, and the Yonge line to Steeles, and the Eglinton West line to the airport. Plus if it's really needed, a DRL and looping the Y-U-S line. Yeah that's a few billion dollars. I wonder how much it would cost to obtain a perfect subway in Toronto?

The Sheppard line cost $1 billion. If we assume the same amount of line can be completed for the same amount, I'd guess $1-1.5 billion to finish the Sheppard line, another $1-1.5 billion for the Eglinton West line to be started, maybe $3 billion to the Airport. Yonge to Steeles, maybe $500 million, Spadina to York U, $1 billion. Danforth line to Scarborough: $1 billion. Bloor to Sherway: $500 million.

So let's cost these things out:

Sheppard to SCC and Downsview $1.5 billion
Eglinton West to Airport $3.0 billion
Yonge to Steeles $0.5 billion
Bloor to Sherway $0.5 billion
Danforth to SCC $1.0 billion
Spadina to York U/Steeles $1.0 billion
----------------------------------------------------------------
Total $7.5 billion

leaving $2.5 billion to do a DRL and/or loop YUS if you assume you had $10 billion to work with. Maybe my figures are very conservative and each of those lines would cost a lot more than I'm budgeting. But still, my point is, with $10 billion you could make Toronto's subway perfect, Without any need to breach the 905, where ridership doesn't really warrant subways so much.
 
Practically speaking, I wonder how would socialwoe deal with vested neighbourhood interests (I hesitate to use the too-dismissive term "NIMBYS")--remembering, f'rinstance, the concern in Weston and elsewhere over the Blue 22 plans. From the evidence offered so far, there's not a lot of sensitivity there.

He reminds me of a greasy clubber sort who still fancies himself #1 Stud, even though the ladies know he has a history of violent behaviour (and underperformance besides)...
 
Let us not forget how Blue 22 opposition was rooted in the fear of hundreds of trains passing through requiring the closure of the level crossings connecting the community while offering no benefits to the residents. Let us also remember that the Weston residents' counter-proposal included running MORE trains through the town than proposed by Blue 22 but serving neighbourhoods along the way.
 
the "Prairies" you "see" in the satellite photo are about 12 grandfathered rural farms/estates that will slowly be absorbed into the park as the province is able to acquire them.

Ah hah! A certifiable admission that this so-called protected goverment parkland that'd never be developed is partially not even publicly owned. Yup, good luck shackling yourself to the wild oak trees to save that nest of bewildered woodpecker chicks all the while humming 'Kum By Yah', you econut! Again I never said the park had to be bulldozed over, just one surface rail line (NB- there's already two there) from Littles Rd to the Zoo, a less than 500m stretch which includes the Morningview/Rouge Valley housing community, so virutally zero damage to the park. So please kill/destroy/obliverate any anti-Malvern/Zoo subway idiosyncracies from your thoughts for good.

Please stop calling him Sambora - it makes you look really stupid and drags your argument down from dismissable to laughable. His name is Sorbara.

Darn, I knew I shouldn't have been listening to "It's My Life" while posting, but then I guess the lyric "It's now or never, I ain't gonna live forever" is a more than appropriate mindframe to have when dealing with do-nothing radicals who only come up with 'safe' suggestions and don't dare to think outside the box quite often enough, certainly not enough to influence getting the ball rolling on any reasonable subway extension(s) within our lifetimes.

Even the TTC concluded that public preference for a subway to STC was high while all other transit mode options was low

Well of course the little guy's gonna want subways. That my friend was the motivation behind me starting this thread, to see what, if any, power a group of little guys had in influencing the political agendas of those who should be looking out for where transit is most heavily used or most heavily neglected and put mass transit there. Realistically though money talks, shit walks- shit being Sensible Hypotheticals for Improving Transit.

after Spadina is done, we won't be riding a single kilometre of new subway lines until 2050 or later. You're using that fact to "try" to discredit my argument yet you fail to notice that it also completely undermines your massive subway expansion plans. You're the one that started this whole thread and posted the wild fantasy map, so why bash traditional subway technology where it's clearly needed and supported?

Because when it's no longer financially feasible to build subways I'd like to think we can have something relatively as fast to fall back on. I'll try to see this a glass-half-full situation as a whole new network of RT lines can trevass the city in alot shorter time and for alot less money than a few kms of subways that aren't being built in high-density areas anyhow. Eglinton, Sheppard and new BD extensions on my map were all elevated,surface or semi-underground only envisionments. Only the Queen Line was meant to be a traditional subway.

The "loss of stations/service" is a red herring thrown in by streetcar and light rail fanatics to derail (pun intended) the groundswell of support for a subway expansion. And only 3 stations will be removed, since the Lawrence East station will be shifted east to Midland, Brimley, or McCowan...again, if you were at all familiar with transit in Scarborough... you'd know that.

The current Lawrence East Stn can be considered as loss of a station as well since the Kennedy/Midland corridors rely on it heavily. The new LES wouldn't be at Midland but rather Brimley (it's already been officially documented in the 'Future of the SRT' reports) where only the handful of Scarborough Museum patrons will be pleased while it would a be long walk away for Scarborough Hosp. users. Red Herring or not we have it already and as you put it, if my map can't be accomplished through 'subways' why not embrace a similar technology that'll get us farther mileage of mass transit service for a fraction of the costs a shorter subway line would.

How is a subway ineffective to the majority of STC? No, really, tell me.

Officially the area from Brimley to Bellamy and Ellesmere to the 401 constitutes STC, however as far west as Kennedy and east as Marham Rd. can be included as well. A STC subway gives us a single station to service all these nodes whereas the SRT covers the gambit of these including 4 new stops if expanded Brimley infill, Bellamy, Markham-Ellesmere and Progress-Centennial College.

The subway would benefit travellers coming in from all corners of Scarborough because it would remove the transfer at Kennedy, saving people up to 10 minutes.

That doesn't sound very logical since I doubt the SRT conversion would have very significant bearing on the routing of buses. Space at STC is too tight as is, why you'd open the flood gates when like I've been saying all along the line could extend onwards to 'the area served by the greatest concentration of bus routes in the city', hence relieving pressure off STC and slashing commute times in half.

Instead, a small fortune will be spent on relocating the damned RT to the mezzanine ("your" idea, heh), saving commuters less than 30 seconds each trip. The act of switching trains and waiting for a new one to arrive, load, and leave, is what eats up the most time, not the physical act of walking from one platform to another.

As far as I know I'm the first to suggest this, though it'd almost be laughable if it wasn't so pathetic an architect could seriously create a layout like what we have at Kennedy today, not forseeing how stupid elevating a surface line 3-storeys above it's connecting subway would be. Anyway, looking at the SRT in terms of the hassle of transfer doesn't address the fact your sentencing anyone who doesn't need just the mall to a long walk or even a bus shuttling to reach it far beyond the inconvenience of a 30 sec stair, escalator or elevator ride. And if SRT trains ever became automated like at the airport they could program them to arrive/depart in correspondence with the subway trains below, making those wait times you fear of non-existant.

The Brimley/Lawrence alignment wouldn't run through the hydro corridor and it would be tunneled its entire length - no expropriations necessary.

WTF! If it doesn't run through public land (Hydro Corridor) how can some property acquisition not occur? The best solution, which I'm biased towards, is running BD in the same alignment saving the SRT stations from lay-waste and becoming wretched transit museums, above ground hence saving millions, alignment pre-existing just widening necessary to accomodate the larger vehicles, etc.

Who cares how far the subway's ends are to two arbitrary lines drawn over farmland decades ago! Toronto does not begin and end at its municipal borders and modern cities in general are highly complex, adaptive, and organically-growing systems that can't be contained within some artificial, normalized box and measured in their totality.

In all fairness, even to Rogue Hill and/or the Zoo the subway still would be no where near the border while Mississaga not only gets border services but penetration to its bloody core! My border-border subways were done for the benefit of the suburbs so the anti-suburb rhetoric I've endured being accused of saying was uncalled for. However it's difficult to hear you mention Toronto as a "highly complex, adaptive, and organically-growing" city without shedding a tear for the mismanagement of subway-building that favors only commuters near the YUS loop but nowhere else in the core.

Treating Durham and Peel as equal boundaries simply because they're both regional municipalities that border Toronto is beyond ridiculous.

Except they are equals, only most choose to turn a blind to that fact. Every subway expansion in the past 27 years has mainly benefited the west (I'll forget Sheppard 'Stubway' for this analogy) and continues to bias every proposal I've come across. I tell you guys West Hill/UTSC/Zoo/Malvern and Port Union are important up and coming nodes and what do you do, you laugh at me. I have to believe East Scarborough and even West Durham residents would ride an Eglinton East line or a minor extension NE from STC, which would surpass 50, 000 ppd and hence justify an extension there.

with $10 billion you could make Toronto's subway perfect, Without any need to breach the 905, where ridership doesn't really warrant subways so much.

Careful now they might label you a suburb-phobe as well :lol ! As long as $10 billion could fund a full scale Queen-Eglinton Line, YUS to Steeles at both ends, BD to Sherway and Sheppard East, something for Sheppard (ugh!) and some streetcar upgrades then indeed the system would be near prefect or certainly 100x better than what we have now.

Practically speaking, I wonder how would socialwoe deal with vested neighbourhood interests (I hesitate to use the too-dismissive term "NIMBYS") --remembering, f'rinstance, the concern in Weston and elsewhere over the Blue 22 plans. From the evidence offered so far, there's not a lot of sensitivity there.

Excuse you, I am a Number One Stud, what's Nancy been telling you? lol! It's amusing you bring this up since in past posts I defended Weston residents against Scarberian's extravagant plans to bulldoze a open ditch through it, hence bisecting the community, to build his wacky DRL line that no one there wants. What about burying the line underground between Lawrence and Weston/St Phillips? I already explained property acquisition, enough to accomodate the additional four tracks two all-day service lines would require (Blue 22 and DRL), is a must if these lines were to be built yet alone the closing of well-used cross-streets (although through examining communities like Flemindon Park and Parkway East (DVP/York Mills) utilization of overpass and bridge networks has allowed minimal damage done to the local ambience/way of life, so that might work here). Merry Christmas!
 
Your arguments are impenetrably circular...around and around and around until we all throw up in fits of side-splitting laughter. Wonderful! It's like a bloody car wreck or one of those vomit-inducing rides at the Ex...they make you sick but you just can't turn away from them...must...keep...responding...

Again I never said the park had to be bulldozed over

No, you said the Rouge Park would be developed, not that it had to be (although it would have to be to support a subway to Malvern, probably even an extension to Markham Road). The grandfathered rural lots (a small percantage of the Park's area) cannot be turned into sprawl, they can only severed, and even that may not be permitted. Here it is from the horse's mouth:

"The creation of new residential lots is generally not supported. However, it is recognized that situations
may arise where one or two new residential lots may be proposed through the severance process. Such
situations will be evaluated in relation to the land securement priorities (see section 3.4.4) and assessed
against potential impacts on park values. The creation of new residential lots through the plan of subdivision process is not supported."

As far as I know I'm the first to suggest this

You're most certainly not...unless you are Soberman, in which case you should be summarily executed.

Well of course the little guy's gonna want subways.

The SRT replacement process proves that even when "little guys" constitutes the vast majority of the population of Scarborough, politicians and the TTC still won't care and will favour a half billion dollar band-aid solution that will leave transit in Scarborough oozing and infected.

A STC subway gives us a single station to service all these nodes whereas the SRT covers the gambit of these

That's not what gambit means...anyway, you think STC is an insignificant node unworthy of heavy rail transit connections, so why are you so concerned about adjacent areas that are not designated for intensification? So the cardboard recycling plant or the Dad's Cookie's factory or the U-Store it place or the other cardboard recycling plant or the city works depot or the auto wreck yard or the patty manufacturing plant all west of Brimley deserve subway access? This is the wasteland you were lambasting earlier in the thread.

I'll try to see this a glass-half-full situation as a whole new network of RT lines can trevass the city in alot shorter time and for alot less money than a few kms of subways

They can? St. Clair is really flying along, isn't it? And how much did the Harbourfront streetcar project cost, again?

The current Lawrence East Stn can be considered as loss of a station as well since the Kennedy/Midland corridors rely on it heavily.

They rely on Kennedy and Midland buses more.

The new LES wouldn't be at Midland but rather Brimley (it's already been officially documented in the 'Future of the SRT' reports)

It has not been "officially documented." Maps illustrative of general potential alignments all go through Brimley & Lawrence because that alignment is the most direct way to STC, requiring the shortest amount of track, and, therefore, most likely being the cheapest. Any diagonal line drawn between Kennedy station and STC passes close to Brimley & Lawrence. Since the TTC has the creativity of a fruitfly, they have no real intention of working through the Stouffville corridor or even contemplating a Danforth to McCowan corridor.

Space at STC is too tight as is, why you'd open the flood gates when like I've been saying all along the line could extend onwards to 'the area served by the greatest concentration of bus routes in the city'

The greatest concentration of buses is on Yonge north of Finch, which sees about 120 buses an hour.

WTF! If it doesn't run through public land (Hydro Corridor) how can some property acquisition not occur?

Wow, you're just so dense...if it goes through Brimley & Lawrence, it'll be tunneled the whole way.

In all fairness, even to Rogue Hill and/or the Zoo the subway still would be no where near the border

A subway to Eglinton & Hurontario would be closer to Yonge than Rouge Hill.

with $10 billion you could make Toronto's subway perfect, Without any need to breach the 905, where ridership doesn't really warrant subways so much.

Uhh, Yonge & Steeles is the 905...
 
Uhh, Yonge & Steeles is the 905...

No, Steeles is the boundary between 905 and 416 over there. Going to Steeles does not breach the 905 in my mind, it simply reaches it. Going BEYOND Steeles would be breaching the 905. True, if the Steeles station on the Yonge line were on the NORTH side of Steeles, you could argue that the 905 was breached. But if its on the SOUTH side, it is not. At least that's my guess of how the addresses on Steeles work. That's how they are on Eglinton on the short strip that is both Eglinton Ave E AND Eglinton Ave W. Yes that's right and here's a google map that proves it :)

maps.google.com/maps?f=q&...41971&om=1

Google Maps incorrectly identifies Eglinton Ave W and Centennial Park Blvd as being in Mississauga, when in fact it's on the Etobicoke side (hence the Eglinton Ave W designation), but Orbitor Dr intersects with Eglinton Ave E because it's in Mississauga. Yet its teh exact same intersection, and the exact same street. Beyond the boundary, it's clear that Eglinton Ave E is in Mississauga and Eglinton Ave W is in Etobicoke, but it could be very strange to an outsider that a section of street is named both Eglinton Ave E and W at the same time.


Erm sorry for the tangent. Carry on with your bickering, Scarberian and Social Woe.
 
The first thing I would do to fix TTC is:
1. Order 500 additional buses, 350 new LRT’s and 20 additional new subway trains.

2. Next is to build 3 new carhouses and 3 bus garages to house the 500 additional buses and 700 LRT’s

3. Hire 3,000 drivers and mechanics.

4. Maximum headway would be 20 minutes regardless the day of the week or time of the day.

5. Headway is based on maximum of 50 riders at peak time and 36 for off peak time for buses. Prefer to see 10 minutes or less with 5 minutes or less as standards.

6. Headway is based on maximum of 70 for CLRV and 90 riders for ALVR’s at peak time and 30 for CLRV’s and 50 for ALRV’s for off peak time. 4 minutes maximum or riders which is every the lowest

7. Headway for the new LRT’s is 4 minutes maximum or 90 riders which is every the lowest.

8. Subway will operate every 2.00 minutes at peak time and 4 minutes off peak time until 1.30 am. From 1.30 am until start of service, headway will be every 10 minutes subject to work.

9. Find work windows on a monthly weekend base where part of the line is close to fix things as well upgrade the system in a shorter time frame than current plan. This will allow bi-direction signals work to allow trains to run on one track while the other track is out of service.

10. Build 20km or more each year for ROW. More than 1 ROW should be built at the same time to the point that 5 lines should be on going. Cost would be $300 million plus a year

11. Build 4km or more of subway per year for the next 40 years. More than one line can be built at the same time.

12. Change the current setup of management as well Commissioners so the public has a voice in planning and operation of the system.

13. Reduce cost ratio from 78% to 50% at the farebox by reducing monthly passes to $80, Weekly passes to $21, day passes to $5 and tickets/tokens to 10 for $15. Cash fare stays the same.

14. More express service to/from the core and else where without paying a premium fare.

15. 2 hour transfers.

17. Replace current streetcar fleet of 292 with 350 LRT's.

18. 20 large screens (70") built into each station wall so riders can see what is going on for the system like the current video screens with a 6/8 inch at the bottom for TTC. Since TTC will need about 1,300 screens, they can obtain a better price as a tender than what can be bought at a store.

Cost of ROW and operation under phase 2 by GTTA. Phase 1 by TTC except where it goes into the 905 where it will be 40-60% split as TTC has most to gain.

Building ranking for ROW.
a)&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp Dufferin St from Lake Shore to Teston Rd under phase 1. Phase 2 would be to Bradford. Ridership is just over 53,000. Will required rebuilding of the jog at Queen St, tunneling from Dupont to St Clair and a tunnel/bridge from Roger Rd to Eglinton Ave to deal with the grade and valleys. Most of Dufferin St is not wide enough for a ROW from Queen St to Eglinton without removing a lane of traffic. Cost is $50 million per KM for the whole route.
b)&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp Finch Ave from Steeles Ave in the west to Sewells Rd to the east under phase 1. Phase 2 to Bowmansville. Cost $15m/km.
c)&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp Don Mills from the Lake Shore to Teston Rd under phase 1. Phase 2 is to Mount Albert. Will cross the Don Valley by bridge, go underground under Coxwell and resurface at Gerard St. Continue south to meet the Lake Shore E line. Cost $25m/km.
d)&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp Jane St from BD to Teston Rd under phase 1 and to Hwy 9 under phase 2. Cost $15m/km.
e)&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp Steeles Ave from Hwy 50 in the west to Markham-Pickering Rd in the east as Phase 1. Phase 2 would follow Taunton Rd to Scugog-Manvers Townline in the east and and to Hurontario St in the west. Phase 3 would be to Milton. Cost $15m/km.
f)&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp Markham Rd from Kingston Rd to Eglin Mills Rd as Phase 1 and to Mount Albert under Phase 2. Cost $15m/km.
g)&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp Sheppard Ave from Weston Rd to Port Union GO station. Either mothball the Sheppard line with tracks on the surface or convert it to an LRT line until line can support a subway in the first place. Sections of the existing platforms will have to be close off and other sections lower to support the new LRT’s. Service will have to be MU or articulate with headway every 3 minutes. Fight over this. Cost $25m/km.
h)&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp Victoria Ave-Woodbine: from Main station to Elgin Mills under phase 1. Phase 2 is to go to Bradford. Cost $15m/km.
i)&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp Lawrence Ave from Port Union Go Station to the Airport as phase 1. Phase 2 will go from the airport north to Mayfield Rd and then to 89 under phase 3. Cost $20m/km to cover the cost of building a bridge over the Don Valley.
j)&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp Kennedy Rd from Kingston Rd to Eglin Mills Rd as phase 1 and to Mount Albert under phase 2. Cost $15m/km.
k)&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp Albion Rd-Wilson Ave-York Mills-Ellesmere Rd from Steeles Ave to Port Union GO station. Cost $15m/km.
l)&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp Keel St from the Lake Shore to Teston Rd as phase 1. Phase 2 is to Bradford. Cost is $25m/km to cover the cost of a tunnel from St Clair to Rogers Rd.
m)&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp Weston Rd from BD to Teston Rd as phase 1. Phase 2 is to Bradford. Cost $20m/km to cover the cost of a tunnel from Rogers Rd to Eglinton Ave.
n)&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp Islington Ave from the Lake Shore to Kleinberg as phase 1. Phase 2 is to hwy 89. Cost is $15m/km.
0) Dundas from Scarlett Rd to 403 as phase 1. Phase 2 to Bronte Rd, phase 3 to Aldershot and phase 4 to Stoney Creek. Cost $16m/km as a elevated bridge is require to go over Mississauga Rd. Part of this line will be as line 2 LRT in Mississauga and will be built before other lines as note above.

This is just a few ROW at this time and not all ROW will be for LRT. I have not taken the Kingston Rd. and the Fort York line inconsideration as they are in the work. Same goes for St Clair W extension since the EA starts in 2007. Same goes for the Queens Quay, Cherry St and the Western Waterfront as the EA’s are underway with Commissioner St, Unwin Ave, Lake Shore, south Cherry St, Leslie St and Broadview extension 10-20 years off at this time.

Existing Rail Lines:
All existing rail system to be upgraded to the maximum number of tracks an ROW can handle to cover two addition tracks for an LRT/DMU/EMU system. It will see more station along the lines in between the existing GO station to handle 10-15 service on a 24 hour base.

Fare will be the standard TTC fare within Toronto.

Subway program:
i.&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp BD from Kennedy to STC by the hydro ROW to Markham Rd and Sheppard Ave as phase 1. New station and alignment at Kennedy. Stations will be at Lawrence Ave, Ellesmere Ave, STC, Markham Rd-Progress Ave and Sheppard. Phase 2 will go north on Markham Rd to Eglin Mills Rd with station at Finch, Steeles, CNR, Hwy 7, CNR, 16th Ave and Elgin Mills.

ii.&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp BD from Kipling to Cloverdale under phase 1 with a new intercity and TTC terminal to replace TTC and MT current locations. New GO station to connect with new terminal as well a parking structure to house 3,000 cars. Phase 2 to Sq one by Dundas St, not the CPR line with station at Dixie Rd, Cawthra Rd that connects with GO Line, Hurontario St, Cooksville GO station, Elm-Central Parkway, Burnhamthorpe Rd and Sq One. There is to be a rough in station at mid point between Cloverdale and Dixie for future 100,000 plus redevelopment along Dundas. Provision be look at for a Y at Cloverdale where part of the line would go north to connect with the Eglinton line to get to the airport. This will see every other train going to either Sq One or the airport.

iii.&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp Queen St from Jane St BD station to Victoria BD station as phase 1. Stops will be at Roncesvalles, Lansdowne, Dufferin, Bathurst, Spadina, University, Yonge, Parliament, Broadview, Coxwell and Neville. Existing streetcars will service the areas in between the stations and not kill Queen Street off like what happen to the Danforth. Also, ridership will not support a station in the first place. People like to see what is happening above ground than look at bare walls. The Queen line will go north on Jane St to Steeles as phase 2 and to Teston Rd as phase 3. In the east the line will go north on Victoria/Woodbine to Elgin Rd as phase 2 and 3. We have the DRL and express service to the core.

iv.&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp Eglinton Ave from Guildwood GO station to the airport by Renforth as phase 1 Phase 2 to Pickering GO station and connect with the Sheppard Line.

v.&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp Sheppard between Yonge St and Downsview and connect to the Spadina line as a Y as phase 1. Will allow every other YUS train to service the Sheppard line and help to take the pressure off Yonge line. Phase 2 to Weston Rd to the west and to Morningside to the east and it bypass STC by staying on Sheppard. Phase 3 will see the line go west to the airport and to Pickering GO station to the east and connect with the Eglinton line. Phase 4 would see the line go west along Eglinton Ave to connect with the BD line at Sq One.

vi.&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp North V: This is still in the works, but as follows. Between Spadina and Parliament on King St. It goes north-west to Steeles and Hwy 50 connecting with the BD at Dufferin, Weston Rd at St Clair and Eglinton, Jane St at Tretheway, Sheppard line at Kipling north of Rexdale Blvd and Steeles at Hwy 50. In the east it goes north-east and connecting with the BD at Pape. It will connects with the Eglinton line and GO line, Victoria and Lawrence, Sheppard-GO Agincourt Station and the Markham-Steeles. This section will be the most costly as it is in the valley. There are other stations where they connect to other major TTC lines. Total of 29 stations.

vii.&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp South V: Steeles Ave 2, 000 feet on either side of Yonge St. South-east section connects with Sheppard line at Victoria, STC and Eglinton line at Kingston Rd. It also connect with the north-east V at Birchmount-Ellesmere. South-west connects with the Sheppard line at Dufferin, Eglinton-Weston Rd, BD at Royal York and Lake Shore-Brown Line. There are other stations where they connects to other major TTC lines. Total of 22 stations

viii.&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp Spadina Extension as plan under phase 1. This far down the list as the ridership is not there now or in 20 years. An LRT line could build that runs from Downsview to King City for $878 million compare to $2 billion only to hwy 7. The bridge over the 407 would be built for the future subway.

ix. Yonge line from Finch to Elgin Mills Rd. This extension is far down the list to allow other N-S lines to be in place to take the pressure off the Yonge line first before adding more riders as we know this will increase once built. At some point a 2nd Yonge line will have to be build under and beside the current line and it will be more of an express line.

x. Yonge-Bay St line from Elgin Mills to Queens Quay. Will go south on Bay St starting at Dupont. Will go under YUS at Union station and will have to be heavily waterproof and will be costly.

xi.&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp Steeles Line from Hwy 50 to Markham-Pickering line running under Steeles, not the Hydro corridor as the hydro line would be to far from Steeles as well causing extra transferring. Route will follow the plan LRT line as phase 1. Phase 2 will continue west and connect with GO Mount Pleasant Station.

xii.&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp Teston-Elgin line will run from Islington Ave to Markham Rd.

Grand total of about 400km of new lines or 90 years of continues building subway at 4km per year. It would take 40 years doing 10Km as well $2.5 billion a year to build this system.

905 will have to pickup their share of the cost.

As for the V, it goes with the saying that the shortest route is how the crow flies. The lines maybe long, but traveling time is cut by 40%.

Cost of any LRT, ROW and subway going into the 905 will be bore by the 905 along with operation cost on a 40-60 base since TTC will have the most to gain. It will be the same funding arrangements as for the current Spadina extension. Exception will be the Teston-Elgin which will be 100% by the GTTA.

400 series highways: The 400 series can be either a LRT/EMU/DMU/monorail/maglev depending on distance, load factor or what part of the highway can be use. Since no lanes of traffic can be taken away, this rules out most grade level service and leaves us with elevate system. Because of the grade on the 401, the elevated sections will be at least 18m above grade. Stops are far in between in most case and only connect with major TTC and GO routes only. Stations will be built over the connecting route using centre platform with stairs and elevators on both side of the connecting road.

401: Milton to Pickering GO Station. Stops at Martin Rd, James Snow, Trafalgar Rd, 407, 10th line, Winston Churchill, Mississauga Rd, Orangeville Rail Line, Mavis Rd, Hurontario St, 410, Dixie Rd, 427, Islington/GO Line, Weston Rd, 400, Jane St, Keel St, Dufferin/Spadina Line, Yonge St, Leslie St/GO line, Don Mills, 404, Victoria, Warden, McGowan, Markham Rd, Meadowvale and Pickering GO Station.

400: Union Station, Eglinton/Weston Sub, Lawrence, 401, Sheppard, Finch, Steeles, 407/Halton Sub, Hwy 7, Rutherford, Major Mac, Teston, King-Vaughan Rd, King Rd, Hwy 9, Hwy 89, Hwy 88, Barrie.

404/Don Valley: Union, Don Mills, Eglinton, Lawrence, York Mills, 401, Sheppard, Finch, Steeles, Hwy 7, CNR, Hwy 7, 16th Ave, Major Mac, Elgin Rd, Bloomington Rd, Aurora Rd and Hwy 9.

427: Union, Park lawn, Islington, Kipling, Qew/427, Dundas, Eglinton, 401, Dixon Rd, Finch, Derry Rd, Steeles, CNR, 407 and Hwy 7. Extension could start from Lake Shore and Brownline.

403/410: Mayfield, Bovaird, Queen St, CNR, 407, Steeles, 401, Derry Rd, 401, Eglinton, Eastgates, Hurontario, Milton CPR, Mississauga Rd, Erin Mills, Winston Churchill, 407, Burnhamthorpe, Dundas, Upper Middle Rd.

407: Hamilton, Aldershot, 403/QEW, Dundas, Walker Lines, Appleby, Bronte, Trafaler, 403/407, Eglinton. Derry, 401, Mississauga Rd, Mavis, Hurontario, Dixie, Airport Rd, The Gore Rd, 427, Islington/CPR, Weston Rd, 400, Jane St, Keel St, Dufferin, Yonge/CNR, Don Mills, 404, Don Mills, Woodbine, Warden, Stouffville/CNR, McGowan, Markham Rd, CNR, Brock Rd and Pickering GO station.
 
I didn't think it was possible, but that plan is even worse than socialwoe's...there's some good stuff mixed in, for sure, but there's a good $100 billion of useless junk thrown in. An Elgin Mills subway line? C'mon, the line between fantasy map and just plain stupid can't be that vague.
 
Ah hah! A certifiable admission that this so-called protected goverment parkland that'd never be developed is partially not even publicly owned. Yup, good luck shackling yourself to the wild oak trees to save that nest of bewildered woodpecker chicks all the while humming 'Kum By Yah', you econut! Again I never said the park had to be bulldozed over, just one surface rail line (NB- there's already two there) from Littles Rd to the Zoo, a less than 500m stretch which includes the Morningview/Rouge Valley housing community, so virutally zero damage to the park. So please kill/destroy/obliverate any anti-Malvern/Zoo subway idiosyncracies from your thoughts for good.

Oh my...please go back to the 1953 Chamber of Commerce meeting that you came from. You really don't seem to grasp the concept of government control of development. The government has ensured with armfuls of legislation that Rouge Park will never be developed. Legislation means that it's the law.

As you said earlier, your extension to the zoo was justified by all the development you said would certainly happen in Rouge Park. Remember? You said that a High Park-size green space would remain. If it isn't developed, as you said it would be, and as it never can be, who on earth do you think will be using the two subway lines at the zoo?

Except they are equals, only most choose to turn a blind to that fact. Every subway expansion in the past 27 years has mainly benefited the west (I'll forget Sheppard 'Stubway' for this analogy) and continues to bias every proposal I've come across.

Uhh...every single rapid transit expansion in the last 27 years has been to the east - Sheppard and the RT - save one stop up to Downsview. The subway line serving the west (Eglinton) was even cancelled favouring the one serving the east (Sheppard).

How are Peel and Durham "equal"? Peel is closer to Toronto, has far more people, far higher transit ridership, and far higher density.

I tell you guys West Hill/UTSC/Zoo/Malvern and Port Union are important up and coming nodes and what do you do, you laugh at me. I have to believe East Scarborough and even West Durham residents would ride an Eglinton East line or a minor extension NE from STC, which would surpass 50, 000 ppd and hence justify an extension there.


Excuse you, I am a Number One Stud, what's Nancy been telling you? lol! It's amusing you bring this up since in past posts I defended Weston residents against Scarberian's extravagant plans to bulldoze a open ditch through it, hence bisecting the community, to build his wacky DRL line that no one there wants.

Nancy... another Bon Jovi fan?

Yet another pdf for you to google. The Weston committee specifically proposed a subway following Scarberian's route as an alternative to Blue 22.
 
Yeah, socialwoe's still subscribing to this school of transit planning, alright
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I didn't think it was possible, but that plan is even worse than socialwoe's...there's some good stuff mixed in, for sure, but there's a good $100 billion of useless junk thrown in. An Elgin Mills subway line? C'mon, the line between fantasy map and just plain stupid can't be that vague.

It was either Major Mack or Elgin as this is some where 50 to 100 year down the road.

I am not looking at what there now for some of these subway, but what can be there 50 to 100 years from now.

There is not much there for Elgin now, but does not mean there will not be.

Elgin is a line on a map that can be move at a later date to where it will be more useful.

What do you call useless junk beside Elgin?

Between Toronto, Peel and York, we have about 4 million people now. A hundred years ago, there was not even 500,000 around then. The big numbers has only been in the last 50 years or less.

Would you say the population for the 3 areas will be around 10 million in a 100 years from now or more? If so where are they going to live that is easy to build for?

I can see lines going into York as far as hwy 7 now and maybe I should had said anything north of it would be phase 3 and 4.

As much people bitch about Sq One, it will have 125,000 plus living and working there over the next 20 years, This does not allow for riders who will still be using Sq One as transit hub. If you use the 60/40 model split like TTC does, you got 73,000 riders from that area alone. Add in another 70,000 riders that transfer you are looking at moving over 140,000 riders daily (MT sees 40,000 riders a day at Sq One Terminal now). If 60,000 of the 140,000 riders get on the BD, how much room will be left for Toronto riders to use? Islington see 21,000 plus riders now. Added in the other stops along the route and the numbers will be?

So building one or two subway to Sq One is not a dream, it load factor.

Same goes for going into York and Durham.

You need to look at the big picture, not a small dote on a map.

This plan is always on going with up dates and will change some what.

I deal with transit on a GTA base now not the MT I started off 6 years ago with follow by TTC.

Lets see your plan and how do you rank your project.

I can take the heat.
 
I gotta say I agree with drum on the prioritization of subway expansion, with SCC and MCC getting subway extensions first. It only makes sense that the Bloor-Danforth line gets extended at both ends.
 

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