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The TTC lost one trip from me last night. I walked from Yonge and St. Clair to Bathurst and Bloor to meet some people for dinner. It's true that I was already in enough of a walking mood to consider making that 4 km trip on foot. But as much as I like walking, it was cold enough that I would have ultimately chosen the TTC if the fare was a dollar.

Is a one dollar fare reasonable? One dollar for a 4 km trip means the TTC receives 25 cents to pay for each kilometre I travel. If someone boards at Finch, also gets off at Bathurst, and pays $2.75 for the 14 km trip, the TTC would not even receive 20 cents to pay for each kilometre of travel.

Fare by distance please! Only then will the TTC become an actual means of transportation, rather than a desperate cash grab at my hard earned money.
 
The TTC lost one trip from me last night. I walked from Yonge and St. Clair to Bathurst and Bloor to meet some people for dinner. It's true that I was already in enough of a walking mood to consider making that 4 km trip on foot. But as much as I like walking, it was cold enough that I would have ultimately chosen the TTC if the fare was a dollar.

Is a one dollar fare reasonable? One dollar for a 4 km trip means the TTC receives 25 cents to pay for each kilometre I travel. If someone boards at Finch, also gets off at Bathurst, and pays $2.75 for the 14 km trip, the TTC would not even receive 20 cents to pay for each kilometre of travel.

Fare by distance please! Only then will the TTC become an actual means of transportation, rather than a desperate cash grab at my hard earned money.

Here's the problem with fare-by distance:

It brings lower fares to downtown residents - the people who already use transit the most. If we want to encourage higher ridership in the suburbs, fare by distance - as you've described it - isn't the way to go. I'm not fully opposed to the concept, but this is the problem that needs to be addressed.
 
Your wish is my command. Numbers from Mike's Transit Stop and Bank of Canada inflation calculator.

ttcfaresandridership230ai5.gif


The relationship between service and ridership is fear clearer, however.

ttcfaresandridership231pw1.gif
 
so whats the future will TTC see record ridership and 500 million riders or will it fall again??
 
Interesting graphs CDL.TO.

A question about the first one: it suggests a fall in ridership before the rise in fares. Is that the actual case, or is it an artifact of the plotting (wherein fare hikes brought about a drop in users)?
 
Here's the problem with fare-by distance:

It brings lower fares to downtown residents - the people who already use transit the most. If we want to encourage higher ridership in the suburbs, fare by distance - as you've described it - isn't the way to go. I'm not fully opposed to the concept, but this is the problem that needs to be addressed.

To be a bit more accurate, fare by distance lowers fares for people who use up less of the TTC's resources to complete their trip (ie, travel short distances). These people could be downtown residents commuting to their job downtown, high school students in Scarborough travelling 10 minutes to school, or someone in Willowdale heading to their job at IBM a short bus ride away.

I do agree that this causes a dilemma, because it's no question that people in the suburbs would tend to be the hardest hit. But given the current fare structure, those living south of Eglinton tend to be hardest hit, and that causes a bit of a dilemma as well.

The only solution I can think of is to implement a capped fare by distance structure - you pay 15 cents a km or whatever it may be, but once you reach a fare of $2.75, you pay no more. That way, long distance commuters end up paying the maximum possible fare which is not more than what they pay today, while short distance commuters receive a nice credit.
 
that massive ridership decline was in due part of a boom in Toronto in the late 80's that collapsed, i think.... :confused:
 
To be a bit more accurate, fare by distance lowers fares for people who use up less of the TTC's resources to complete their trip (ie, travel short distances). These people could be downtown residents commuting to their job downtown, high school students in Scarborough travelling 10 minutes to school, or someone in Willowdale heading to their job at IBM a short bus ride away.

I do agree that this causes a dilemma, because it's no question that people in the suburbs would tend to be the hardest hit. But given the current fare structure, those living south of Eglinton tend to be hardest hit, and that causes a bit of a dilemma as well.

The only solution I can think of is to implement a capped fare by distance structure - you pay 15 cents a km or whatever it may be, but once you reach a fare of $2.75, you pay no more. That way, long distance commuters end up paying the maximum possible fare which is not more than what they pay today, while short distance commuters receive a nice credit.

I think can agree to that.

I think our position on this issue depends on our location bias. People living downtown are going to want a strict fare-by-distance, because it will benefit them by lowering their fares. I live at the edge of suburbia, so I would clearly benefit from flat fares.

Either way, implementing fare-by-distance in Toronto would only be possible with Presto, and would require you to tap out - a concept that would be foreign to most TTC users. Is the cost of rebuilding the fare system and re-educating the riders worth the efficiencies gained?

Lets hope the planners get to make those decisions and not the politicians.
 
Interesting graphs CDL.TO.

A question about the first one: it suggests a fall in ridership before the rise in fares. Is that the actual case, or is it an artifact of the plotting (wherein fare hikes brought about a drop in users)?

Lordmandeep's got the right idea. It IS the actual case that ridership has dropped prior to fares increasing. The state of the economy has a far greater effect on ridership than any other factor. It makes sense; economic decline leads to reduced government revenues leads to budget crisis leads to fare increase. Just adds to the current frustration of living in good economic times with booming ridership while service flatlines and fares increase rapidly.

With the lower chart, it seems that service levels have a greater effect on ridership than fares, too.
 
^Thanks.

In relation to the bottom graph, one often gets the impression from some other TTC users that a fare increase would be tolerable if it translated directly into improved service. The trouble is that the price of a monthly pass is now really milking the potential for this idea to death.
 
judging by this graph TTC ridership should be close to 460 million this year and if this trend continues it will eclipse 500 million rides a year in about 3-4 years...

IMO its pretty high ridership for a fairly old, small system.
 
judging by this graph TTC ridership should be close to 460 million this year and if this trend continues it will eclipse 500 million rides a year in about 3-4 years...

IMO its pretty high ridership for a fairly old, small system.

How exactly do you consider the TTC is a "small system" by North American Standards

... no argument on the *old part, for the most part.
 
Well Hume for one wants us to be London!

London towers over Toronto in transit thinking
TheStar.com - GTA - London towers over Toronto in transit thinking
September 13, 2007
Christopher Hume

LONDON—The days of Swinging London may be over, but this is still a city that moves.

It's not that the streets of the British capital are any less congested than ours in Toronto, but in London, there are alternatives. This city takes public transit seriously, very seriously. Toronto, which isn't in the same league, is content mainly to talk about the idea of mass transportation, but not to pay for it.

To some extent, the reasons for London's superiority are historical; the Underground has been carrying riders for over a century. Ours is barely 50 years old.

But the differences go beyond that. Like the vast majority of North American cities, Toronto is hooked on the automobile. We see a car as a sanctuary, a symbol of freedom, mobility and status. The reality might be otherwise, but however irrational, these emotions run deep.

By contrast, the English have decided not to worry about the psychology of how they get around, but the practicalities. London has so many subway lines, it's damn near impossible for the visitor to figure the system out. And buses – the iconic double-deckers and the new "bendies" (articulated buses) – are everywhere.

Then there are the bicycle users, who have their own lanes throughout much of the city. And, of course, the famous London taxis, those wonderfully retro black boxes, ply the roads in vast numbers. Each cabbie owns his vehicle and is free to work when he or she wants. But before they can get a licence, they have to learn "the knowledge," a three- or four-year immersion into the nooks and crannies of London streets that turns graduates into a walking road map.

And let's not forget the controversial Congestion Zone. Introduced by London Mayor Ken Livingstone in 2003, it has cut weekday vehicular traffic by 20 per cent. Earlier this year, the zone was doubled in size and now there's talk of upping the $17 (Cdn) daily fee.

Meanwhile, back in Toronto, TTC officials met yesterday to decide how to deal with its chronic funding shortfall. They wisely opted to raise fares by 15 cents rather than cut already inadequate services. That would have been disastrous. The decision was not taken lightly, and is at best a stopgap measure. The fact is the commission operates in an environment of minimal public support.

It's worth noting that the British government has just spent $12 billion to build a high-speed rail line that will link central London's newly refurbished St. Pancras Station to Paris (in two hours and 15 minutes) and points beyond.

True, this isn't the same as a new subway line, but it demonstrates the U.K.'s commitment to mass transit. Getting people out of cars – and in the case of the new train route, planes – is a priority. Despite the cost, it's something the national government – whether Conservative or Labour – was willing to undertake.

Where are Ottawa and Queen's Park in the Great Transportation Debate? The former gives nothing, the latter as little as possible.

And yet the relationship between urban dynamism and transit is more fundamental than ever in an age of global warming. Cities that can't move citizens from A to B quickly and efficiently are on the slow road to nowhere.

Though we all know this, the political will to deal with it head-on doesn't exist. We persist in the attitude that public transit is for those who can't afford to drive, the rest of us needn't worry.

The truth is that we can't afford not to drive.

----------

Not that I think London should be our model, but it is true that for the first time in a generation Londoners are experiencing a complete re-investment in their system and some very aggressive anti-driving policies. Still, that doesn`t mean you won`t wait 20 minutes for a train on the Hammersmith & City line.
 

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